and nobody seems to have acknowledged Andrew Dapuzzo's post which I found
enlightning. Any comments?



On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Dapuzzo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I worked for a company that managed the archive for UMG in Europe.  When I
> approached UMG in the US I was told the archiving business was not
> available because the LOC offered to provide the service for free in
> exchange for allowing them to use, under very strict rules, some of the
> content.  While I love the people I work with at UMG I am confident they
> did not offer the LOC something out of generosity.  I don't know if the LOC
> approached other labels with this deal but I would imagine it would be hard
> to turn down.  UMG was shopping the service at the time because of the fire
> you mentioned earlier.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:38 AM, David Seubert <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > With all due respect to your expertise in the tape era, in the pre-tape
> > era the preservation situation is much more dire. There will never be a
> day
> > when we have pristine transfers from metal parts for many pre-tape era
> > recordings. The metal parts just don't exist. Columbia (now Sony)
> > supposedly has the largest archive of metal parts around, but most of the
> > other archives of metal parts are gone due to war, neglect, or
> > incompetence, and the only surviving copies are now the shellac
> pressings.
> > Most shellac recordings exist in quantity in public and private
> > collections, but it is still important to save original pressings. At
> UCSB
> > we sift though thousands of shellac pressing a year, archiving anything
> > that isn't already in our collection for discographic evidence and for
> > preservation and public access.
> >
> > UCSB also has extensive correspondence between William R. Moran and staff
> > at Columbia documenting the destruction of their metal parts in the 50s
> as
> > a group of collectors covertly tried to save some of the recordings. I
> > won't judge the management decisions of Columbia at the time, but the
> facts
> > are the facts, and they destroyed much of their archive, as did most
> > labels. Preservation of shellac is nothing like the tape era, where the
> > vast majority exist on a better media somewhere. For many early labels,
> > shellac is the archival medium now, and to discount recordings of "lesser
> > artistic merit" is to fall into the same trap the Columbia management in
> > the 50s fell into, saving the classical metal parts but not the rest.
> >
> > And for clarification, Sony hasn't donated anything to LC that I'm aware
> > of. UMG did donate the Decca metal parts to LC, but that's only because
> in
> > the previous year their LA warehouse burned down consuming over 100,000
> > master tapes in the fire. Perhaps the combination of guilt and the
> > potential tax benefits of a donation finally got to them?
> >
> > David Seubert
> >
> > On Dec 3, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Tom Fine wrote:
> >
> > > Hi David:
> > >
> > > Still haven't fixed that reply-to setting, but anyway ...
> > >
> > > I would advise your daughter to ask Salvation Army or Goodwill or
> > whatever is the Canadian equivilent to take them away and handle the
> > collector chaos. A cherry-picking mahem session goes in the class of
> "don't
> > try this at home"! Maybe sweeten the deal by promising the store that you
> > will alert the collector lists with which you communicate, so they won't
> be
> > stuck with hundreds of pounds of records that no one will ever buy.
> Perhaps
> > there is a thrift store nearby affiliated with some worthy charity in
> your
> > local community, so your good deed will directly benefit some of those
> who
> > live near your daughter (and thus, indirectly, improve her quality of
> life
> > under the theory of social-good ripple effects). Maybe you and your
> > daughter could reach out now, while you're still in good shape, and see
> > which if any thrift stores might be interested. In the least, it will be
> > educational because you can gauge the interest within easy transport
> > distance.
> > >
> > > From a larger perspective, I wonder if the day will come when shellac
> of
> > anything with a surviving metal or laquer master will be totally
> worthless.
> > I note the Sony and UMG donations (with many strings attached) to the
> LOC.
> > So what if the ideal day comes, when all those metal parts and lacquers
> > have been cleaned and excellent transfers were made and the
> high-resolution
> > digital files are easily accessible in the public domain? At the point,
> why
> > would anyone want an old shellac pressing, which in theory should sound
> > terrible compared to the digital transfer from the metal or laquer
> parts? I
> > realize that many shellac-era records no longer have metal parts or
> > spotless lacquers, but what about those that do? In theory, that would
> free
> > up a lot of bulk-storage space for both collectors and archives, and
> those
> > who accumulate the worthless shellacs would be more object-grabbers than
> > collectors. Regarding the concept of archiving and cultural legacy, I
> don't
> > see this as any different from having a good-condition master tape but no
> > remaining copies of the LP. Or having multiple managed data farms full of
> > the bits and bytes that used to live on fragile U-Matic 1630 tapes or
> DATs.
> > >
> > > -- Tom Fine
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:09 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> > >
> > >
> > >> Well this is my dilemma too. I remember the thrill I've felt many
> times
> > as I've found treasure after treasure in Goodwill stores and their kind
> but
> > if my daughter just threw open the door and invited collectors to come
> and
> > cherry pick through the collection, they would leave her with total
> chaos -
> > it would probably look like there were more records when they were
> finished
> > that when they started.
> > >>
> > >> db
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On , DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> My problem is that I have 10s of thousands of records - most from the
> > CBC record library whose 78s I acquired a couple of years ago and I have
> no
> > idea which are considered rare collectors' items. There are lots of jazz
> > and country records in this collection which might have some commercial
> > value and others that have none. Now it's just me and my daughter left
> and
> > I've told her some organizations to contact when I'm gone, (including
> > ARSC), but have impressed her with the reality that most of the records
> are
> > probably of no value and that she'll probably have to pay someone to
> remove
> > them. There are, of course, many which I value highly but that's no
> > reflection of their market value.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> db
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 5:51:20 PM, John Haley <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> My apologies to you, David Seubert, in my negative comments about
> > donating
> > >>>> to schools. You are the rare enlightened individual at an
> enlightened
> > >>>> institution that understands the value of collections and truly
> > cares. I
> > >>>> know lots of anecdotes about terrible consequences when collections
> > have
> > >>>> been donated to schools. A good example is the donation of Fritz
> > Reiner's
> > >>>> papers and score collection (and the funding that went with it) to
> > Columbia
> > >>>> University, where the materials promptly disappeared from view, with
> > the
> > >>>> money used for other purposes in complete violation of the terms of
> > the
> > >>>> gift. This situation is well discussed in the final chapter of
> Philip
> > >>>> Hart's good Reiner biography. As the schools know, years after the
> > gift
> > >>>> there is no one around who is likely to challenge their violation of
> > the
> > >>>> terms of the gift, and there's all that cash just sitting there, and
> > >> the
> > >>>> burning need for funding for the hot, trendy project-of-the-month.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>> John Haley
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Tom Fine <
> [log in to unmask]
> > >wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Cary, David, Mike Gray, etc:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The more we talk about this, I think this topic is important enough
> > for an
> > >>>>> article or on-going series of briefs in the ARSC Journal. Maybe
> > something
> > >>>>> akin to the copyright-law briefs. Estate law changes all the time,
> > which is
> > >>>>> why I think a one-shot article may not be as useful. However, an
> > article
> > >>>>> could cover issues from the collector perspective (how to figure
> out
> > what
> > >>>>> to donate and what to leave out as flotsum and jetsum; how to find
> a
> > >>>>> willing recipient; how to bring family members or friends into the
> > process;
> > >>>>> how to deal with an estate attorney
> > >> probably not expert in your collection;
> > >>>>> etc). It's also probably worth discussing, the differences between
> a
> > true
> > >>>>> collection (which I would argue is something that has been curated
> > by a
> > >>>>> collector with expertise in the subject area, is somewhat focused
> and
> > >>>>> contains at least some rare/valuable items in excellent condition)
> > vs an
> > >>>>> accumulation (which is self-described but what, in my experience,
> > many call
> > >>>>> a "collection").
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I wish I knew more about the legal issues and the institutional
> > >>>>> perspectives on the topics we're raising. It would definitely help
> > my own
> > >>>>> planning, and I think it would be a great service to ARSC members,
> > in some
> > >>>>> cases more than justifying membership.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -- Tom Fine
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Seubert" <
> > >>>>> [log in to unmask]>
> > >>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 3:56 PM
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Cary,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I agree that this would be an important session. I think that
> > somebody
> > >>>>>> from an institution on the curatorial side should be on the panel,
> > but I
> > >>>>>> also think somebody from an institutional major gifts office
> should
> > be on
> > >>>>>> the panel. Perhaps UNC has somebody on staff that could appear?
> Our
> > >>>>>> position is vacant now, but typically our person is a lawyer who
> can
> > >>>>>> actually help donors write bequest language and weigh tax
> benefits.
> > There
> > >>>>>> can be significant tax benefits to donors that I don't think are
> > well
> > >>>>>> understood.
> > >> My example is that a dealer might pay ten cents on the dollar
> > >>>>>> for a collection (and probably cherry pick), while a tax deduction
> > would
> > >>>>>> net a donor 20 cents on the dollar if the donor is in a 20% tax
> > bracket.
> > >>>>>> That's real money, not just good will.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I also think a dealer and a collector should be on the panel
> though
> > I'm
> > >>>>>> not sure who would be willing.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> This is more common than some probably realize. David Lennick also
> > lost
> > >>>>>> much of his collection two years ago in a "storage wars" type
> > situation. I
> > >>>>>> think all the 78s found homes, but I think his master tapes got
> > sold for
> > >>>>>> the scrap value of the flanges.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> If I can help in any way, let me know.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> David
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> David Seubert
> > >>>>>> Head, Special Collections (Acting)
> > >>>>>> UC Santa Barbara
> > >> Library
> > >>>>>> University of California
> > >>>>>> Santa Barbara, CA 93106-9010
> > >>>>>> Tel: 805-893-5444
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> > >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cary Ginell
> > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:18 AM
> > >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> My wife knows the value of my collection, both historical as well
> as
> > >>>>>> intrinsic, but we are torn as to whether to auction or donate, and
> > if the
> > >>>>>> latter, to whom and when? It would be a shame to find oneself in
> Mr.
> > >>>>>> Barr's situation where desperation often invites
> > >> wholesale dumping just to
> > >>>>>> get rid of it all.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> This subject needs to be addressed in a panel discussion at the
> > next ARSC
> > >>>>>> conference. If anyone would like to form a panel and draft a
> > proposal, it
> > >>>>>> would be welcomed. I'm program chair for the 2014 conference and
> > believe
> > >>>>>> that this is a major concern for all ARSC members and should be
> > discussed.
> > >>>>>> Who would like to take up the challenge? The deadline for
> submitting
> > >>>>>> proposals is fast approached (January 6).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cary Ginell
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:07 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It's a real issue, and we should all mark Tom's words. I have
> bought
> > >>>>>>> collections and particpated in clean-outs for relatives and
> others,
> > >>>>>>> and
> > >> believe me, the real enemy of the great collection is the
> > >>>>>>> dumpster. That is where a lot of them go. My goal is to skinny
> down
> > >>>>>>> what I have while I am alive, and then leave some kind of list or
> > >>>>>>> markings of what is really valuable. To the non-collectors in our
> > >>>>>>> families who have tolerated our collections for years, it is
> > usually all
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> junk to be got rid of.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>> John Haley
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:07 AM, eugene hayhoe <
> > [log in to unmask]>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I, when I walk into my basement, feel like 'what a lucky guy.' My
> > >>>>>>>> wife, OTOH, goes 'OMG!' and mostly won't even
> > >> come down here.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The concern I have is finding the spot where 'she gets the most
> > >>>>>>>> value' and 'the recordings, etc. end up in the right places'
> meet
> > -
> > >>>>>>>> most dealers have personal financial interests, and the moving
> > 'would
> > >>>>>>>> not be a quick, casual job.' I've suggested more than once that
> > she
> > >>>>>>>> 'hire someone to open a temporary store' as the best way to
> > >>>>>>>> liquidate, but she doesn't display much enthusiasm, despite the
> > quite
> > >>>>>>>> profitable nature of that idea. One friend could be interested
> in
> > >>>>>>>> some, but has his own space issues of the same nature. As a
> > retired
> > >>>>>>>> college faculty member, I wouldn't trust much of any school to
> > 'use
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> them appropriately.'
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I've also told her that 'if Koester is
> > >> still around when that time
> > >>>>>>>> comes, he'd probably be interested.'
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> And in NO way is that a dis; only spoke to him once, but 'have
> > been
> > >>>>>>>> appreciating his efforts in preserving American music for over
> 45
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> years.'
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Gene
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 12/3/13, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> > >>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3,
> > >> 2013, 8:03 AM
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> One lesson that can be learned is
> > >>>>>>>> that we who collect should explore, while we are healthy, vital
> > and
> > >>>>>>>> with full faculties, who might want to inherit our collections.
> Is
> > >>>>>>>> there an institution or archive we trust, and is interested?
> > Another
> > >>>>>>>> collector? Would we like to pre-arrange an auction with an
> expert
> > in
> > >>>>>>>> the topic areas where we focus our collection? Don't assume
> > spouses
> > >>>>>>>> or children or friends know or care about your collection,
> unless
> > you
> > >>>>>>>> have included them in it and they have expressed interest.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Having inherited a few collections of records and vintage audio
> > gear,
> > >>>>>>>> I will say that it is never an easy process because of the bulk,
> > >>>>>>>> logistics, storage and other
> > >> issues.
> > >>>>>>>> There is always expense and time-burden put on the person taking
> > over
> > >>>>>>>> the collection, so make sure that person wants the collection
> > enough
> > >>>>>>>> to put in the time and put up the money. In my case, it helped
> > very
> > >>>>>>>> much in the cases where the collection was well-documented. It
> > also
> > >>>>>>>> helped that two of the collections had been introduced to me
> > >>>>>>>> gradually, with detailed explaination from the original owners.
> In
> > >>>>>>>> fact I treasure those times, with people I respected and cared
> for
> > >>>>>>>> explaining something they loved and about which they knew a
> great
> > >>>>>>>> deal, more than I treasure the actual items.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In the other cases, it was "hey I know you like this kind of
> stuff
> > >>>>>>>> and we need to clean out XX's house so we can sell it, if you'll
> > >> come
> > >>>>>>>> and take it away you can have it." In those cases, I was much
> more
> > >>>>>>>> likely to sell off pieces in order to cover my logistics and
> > storage
> > >>>>>>>> expenses, very soon after taking possession. I do not regret any
> > of
> > >>>>>>>> those sales, because some very nice items passed into hands that
> > >>>>>>>> appreciate and use them today. In these cases, I have passed
> back
> > all
> > >>>>>>>> other sales proceeds to the people generous enough to call me
> > rather
> > >>>>>>>> than put stuff in the dumpster or turn it over to an estate-sale
> > hack
> > >>>>>>>> to get pennies on the dollar of the true values. Net-net, I
> ended
> > up
> > >>>>>>>> keeping fewer items from these collections, but it's nice to
> have
> > >>>>>>>> those things.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The final case I've been involved in was my friend, 10 years my
> > >>>>>>>> junior, who
> > >> died suddenly earlier this year. His father needed help
> > >>>>>>>> assessing his house-full of audio gear, tapes and records, and
> > >>>>>>>> finding buyers for what had monetary value and takers for the
> > rest.
> > >>>>>>>> We managed to get 90% of it sold and given away, and the rest
> > really
> > >>>>>>>> was dumpster junk. I bought some equipment items, which I am
> > happy to
> > >>>>>>>> have, and his father gave me his records and tapes, which I am
> > very
> > >>>>>>>> pleased to have and will remind me of my good friend gone too
> > soon.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The point of this is, if you care about what happens to your
> > >>>>>>>> collection when you're gone, you need to be proactive. The best
> > time
> > >>>>>>>> to be proactive is when you have the energy and the presence of
> > mind
> > >>>>>>>> to do it, ie not at the very end. You can't take it with you,
> and
> > >> you
> > >>>>>>>> must assume that no one else values it and nothing good will
> > happen
> > >>>>>>>> to it unless you make preparations and enlist allies who will
> > outlive
> > >>>>>>>> you.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "eugene hayhoe"
> > >>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:26 AM
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> All that work collecting and organizing for naught? A
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> shame.
> > >> Hope they ended up with 'someone who appreciates what they
> > >>>>>>>> have.'
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 12/2/13, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> > >>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 2, 2013, 9:00 PM
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> David Lennick is your best bet,
> > >>>>>>>>> however I'm not sure he has the info either. I
> > >> don't
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> think
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> there is an e-mail address because the reason he
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> stopped
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> posting on 78L was because he didn't have a computer.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> He may
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> well be out of reach. I understand his records have
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> been
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> liquidated to cover debts owing.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> db
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, David Seubert
> > >>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Anybody heard from Steve Barr lately and have a
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> current
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> contact email? The
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> email I have for him bounces.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> David
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>