My comment on the change in timbre does, indeed, relate to a record played at a 0.44% shifted speed. And, yes, a change of that magnitude will distort a singer's timbre and that change will be easily heard by a trained ear. I pretty sure John Haley will agree with this, but I'll let him weigh in for himself.
Like I said, the difference on test tones may be difficult to detect, but on program material it will be audible. On test tones, there's no change in timbre, and a change in timbre is an important part of what this is about.
Gary
____________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Gledhill
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm - really
Fascinating, however your example does not relate to a record playing at a 0.44% shifted speed.
When you tune an instrument, your can compare a reference note to your note and listen for the beat frequency. This is entirely a different matter. I can certainly hear the beat frequency between 1000 hz and 1004 hz being 4 hz.
My point is that if I stop either the 1000 hz or the 1004 hz tone, I find it hard to tell which has stopped. And this is without leaving the room and coming back or dealing with a non test tone (live material).
Regarding "Pitch Geraldine Farrar 0.44% high and she turns into a canary. Ditto Nelly Melba." Are you saying that shifting less than 1 /13th of a semi-tome is not only detectable but renders a normal voice like a canary?
On 5/1/2017 12:58 PM, Gary A. Galo wrote:
> Any musician must be able to discern such a difference. Otherwise, they'd never be able to tune their instruments (or voices) to their fellow performers. An orchestra with half its members that far out of tune would be painful to hear.
>
> And, any experienced listener, especially those who have spent a lot of time finding the correct playback speeds for historical recordings, will be able to tell the difference. Easily. It's not just a matter of pitch, but of timbre, as well. A 0.44% error in speed causes a significant change in the timbre of a singer's voice. Pitch Geraldine Farrar 0.44% high and she turns into a canary. Ditto Nelly Melba.
>
> And, the difference is much easier to discern with real musical program material than it would be with test tones.
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Gledhill
> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 12:28 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm -
> really
>
> Are you saying that you could walk in and out of a room with material playing and tell the differences between something that had been shifted by 0.44%. Such as music or a 1000 hz versus a 1004 hz tone?
> And, describe the difference as dramatic?
> I find this absolutely fascinating, being somewhat tone deaf myself.
>
> I assume we are not talking about wow or flutter but absolute pitch.
>
> On 5/1/2017 10:56 AM, John Haley wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Michael. The .44 pitch speed/pitch error is a quite
>> significant one, even a dramatic one, in terms of its effect on music.
>>
>> This brings me back to the position I stated earlier in this string,
>> that while all the science is dandy, you should be checking pitch
>> individually for every 78 record, at least for dubbing work. Without
>> research you sometimes can't tell where a record was recorded (which
>> can be different from the place of manufacture, as Michael pointed
>> out), whereas the pitch is manifest from the record itself and easily
>> ascertained. Using all the scientific aids is helpful but doing that
>> without actually checking the pitch is ultimately going to lead to errors.
>>
>> And just checking the pitch is way faster than researching where a
>> record was recorded and then doing all the involved math.
>>
>> While this is off-topic, checking the pitch when dubbing LPs is also
>> a great idea. LP pitch is much more standard than 78 pitch, but
>> still not totally reliable. So many different companies, employing
>> so many human beings, created records, over a long period of time.
>> Nothing is truly "standard."
>>
>> E.g., in past decades, Decca/London Records deliberately released
>> some opera recordings way off pitch, just to save record space and
>> jam an opera onto two records instead of three. Of course that
>> should never have happened at a reputable, big company, but human
>> beings running the company made recognizable human decisions.
>> Completely erroneous and misguided, but there we are.
>>
>> Best,
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Michael Shoshani<
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi John
>>>
>>> Not so much manufactured as recorded. Strobe discs are dependent on
>>> a specific number of lines, which vary according to the frequency of
>>> the blinking of the light source. American 60Hz strobe discs require
>>> 92 bars, which gives a speed of 78.26 RPM, but in countries where
>>> 50Hz is the power frequency, the strobe discs require 77 bars, which
>>> gives a speed of 77.92 RPM. These are thus the speeds at which
>>> electrically driven record players were factory calibrated, and thus
>>> the speeds at which the record companies in their respective areas recorded their material.
>>>
>>> Record companies on both sides of the Atlantic regularly exchanged
>>> material; Jack Hylton's HMV records were issued on Victor here, for
>>> example, and Duke Ellington's Victor records were issued on HMV
>>> there. But these were master pressings, not dubbed and
>>> speed-adjusted. Presumably the 0.44% difference in speed is either
>>> unnoticed or tolerated by most listeners, since the playing
>>> equipment for each would be slightly incorrect for the other country.
>>>
>>> Michael Shoshani
>>> Chicago
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:58 AM, John Haley<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Michael, are you saying that 78s manufactured in Europe play at a
>>>>
>>>>
>>> different
>>>
>>>
>>>> correct speed than 78's manufactured in the US? I have never heard
>>>> anything like that before.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Michael Shoshani<
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gary,
>>>>>
>>>>> While the KAB Speed Strobe works independently of the power line
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> frequency,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> and thus works equally well in 60 Hz and 50 Hz countries in
>>>>> theory, I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> would
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> submit that in practice it is still geared to the speeds provided
>>>>> on 60
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Hz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> turntables, which means that electrically recorded 78s from Europe
>>>>> will
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its specs indicate 78.26 for 78rpm, which is the 60Hz standard;
>>>>> Electrically recorded 78s from countries where 50Hz is the power
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> frequency
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> are recorded at 77.92 RPM. Anyone in the UK or Europe, for
>>>>> example,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> who
>>>
>>>
>>>>> uses the SpeedStrobe to set their turntables at 78, will be
>>>>> playing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> their
>>>
>>>
>>>>> locally manufactured records at a speed 0.44% faster than they
>>>>> should
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> a slightly greater pitching error than the 0.42% Caruso one. (The
>>>>> SpeedStrobe does not offer 77.92, which seems an amazing oversight
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>
>>>>> product intended for worldwide use.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Shoshani
>>>>> Chicago
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Gary A. Galo<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi George,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Following Aida Favia-Artsay, the difference between 76.60 (60Hz)
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 76.92
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> (50Hz) is 0.42%. This is an unacceptable pitching error. Are you
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> telling
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> me
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> that every 76.6-rpm Caruso record pitched using her 50 Hz strobe
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> 0.42% off?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would seem that, for turntables lacking a digital readout, a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> sensible
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> solution is KAB's Speed Strobe:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.kabusa.com/strobe.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Speed Strobe comes with its own LED lamp, which is
>>>>>> illuminated
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> with a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> quartz-locked AC signal. Therefore, it is not dependent on the
>>>>>> power
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> line
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> frequency, and will work equally well in 60 Hz and 50 Hz countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> --
> John Gledhill
> BIT WORKS Inc.
> 905 881 2733
> [log in to unmask]
> www.bitworks.org
>
--
John Gledhill
BIT WORKS Inc.
905 881 2733
[log in to unmask]
www.bitworks.org
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