Re your last line, George, what problems should we be worrying about?
P.S. Sticky shed was not measured for. The variations in error rates are
being measured for.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GeorgeBlood" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Clarifying the MAM-A gold comment
> As I understand, the "issues" (we won't call them "problems") trace the
> recent history of the company, as the Gold product line has been sold
> several times in the last five years. I'm not clear enough about that
> history to recount it, but my impression is that the underlying troubles
> are not "greed" but distraction. CD manufacturing and CD-R manufacturing
> in particular, is extremely competitive. Price vs. costs are driven more
> by survival than by squeezing the last penny out of the customer. Whatever
> the reason, our collective concerns are with the ends, not the means -- we
> don't buy media because a company makes less money than another, we buy it
> because it's "better." "Better" to most consumers is "cheaper". And,
> sorry for this dose of reality, there aren't enough folks in archives
> demanding "higher quality" to show up as dither in the sales data for
> CD-R. Which is where developing relationships to a niche player (like
> MAM-A) is potentially good. Keeping in mind of course, my tiny media
> supplier moves 500,000 blank CD-R every month. Or probably more than
> every CD-R used in preservation world-wide every year.
> We've had serious concerns about the "Mitsui Golds" for some time. We have
> test equipment here and have been monitoring their media. It varies very
> widely from batch to batch, and have returned batches with poor results.
> We also find best results vs. burn speed vary from batch to batch. So we
> lose a few dozen discs from each batch to find the best process window.
> (Although the MAM-A Gold, according to the company, is rated to 52x,
> lately we're finding the best results at 16x. They generally have scored
> badly at low speeds, 1x and 2x) A new shipment just came in, so we'll be
> going through this again this week.)
> We have found MAM-A very responsive to our worries, have never hesitated
> to replace media, and seem to appreciate the feedback and test results.
> I'm not here to be apologist for MAM-A. Back in the day when they gained
> their reputation they made exceptionally fine CD-Rs, better than anything
> we tested (and we do testing ALL the time -- for some projects, every
> single disc; and routinely on all our burners to monitor aging and process
> For consistency and exceptionally low error rates (across the board, BLER,
> E11, E12, E21, E22, E31 and E32), TY takes our prize. They're
> consistently so good I haven't bothered lately to bring in other cyanine
> discs for comparison. But they do stand in stark contrast to MAM-A.
> Typical of CD-Rs, MAM-A Golds have high E12 errors. Atypical of CD-Rs,
> TY's have very low E12 errors (I'm told no one knows why CD-Rs have
> characteristically high E12 errors).
> But does any of this matter? Does the error rate increase? Does it
> increase perpetually or does it plateau? Does it accelerate
> exponentially? Has entropy been repealed by polycarbonate? By the time
> the error rates get high enough to be un-correctable (whether the discs
> last for 50, 100 or 300 years), will there be hardware to play them on?
> What do accelerated aging tests tell us? (Did accelerated aging tests
> predict Sticky Shed Syndrome?) Any good mathematicians out there who can
> tell us, in relation to the available error correction power of the
> format, how much is being spent correcting for these variations in
> manufacturing? Is all this a tempest in a tea pot?
> Are we worried about the right problem?
>>Tom Fine writes:
>>>Not disputing your facts at all. However, I find it curious that Mitsui
>>>would see such a need for
>>Of course, I am not privy to the corporate meetings that led to this
>>decision, but I'd love to go back in time and preempt it!
>>It's probably all about market share and dwindling profits. We
>>professionals aren't driving this market and will be marginalized
>>When I get the chance to contact Mitsui directly about all of this, I'll
>>report to the list whatever I discover.
>>Charles Lawson <[log in to unmask]>
>>Professional Audio for CD, DVD, Broadcast & Internet
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