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ARSCLIST  April 2017

ARSCLIST April 2017

Subject:

Verifying musical pitch (Was: How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm)

From:

Corey Bailey <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:37:40 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (254 lines)

I will second Steve's use of a tuner to verify pitch. I use a chromatic 
tuner to verify pitch when the mains frequency isn't that available on 
the recording (and, even when it is). I have relative pitch having been 
a record engineer and mixer for many years but I still use a reference 
to check myself. John Haley's use of a stable electronic keyboard is 
good if, in fact, the tuning is A-440. I will also use my youngest son 
when he's available because he's a classically trained guitarist and can 
easily call out the key and the tuning by ear.

Cheers!

Corey
Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
www.baileyzone.net

On 4/24/2017 7:15 PM, Steve Smolian wrote:
> The new technology supplies a different solution.  I now use a Technics SL-1200-2 with KAB's modification that adds the 78 rpm speed, replacing SP-15 with its push button incremental speed adjustment. The 1200-2 uses a slider with a detent for 78, 33 or 45, depending on the chosen basic speed.
>
> I run a Korg guitar tuner (about $ 50) and use the1200-2's slider to change record speed while it is playing.  I choose a pre-tuned rather than variable instrument- a  woodwind or piano, not a voice or violin, if possible.   The tuner works by listening to your speakers.
>
> When the record is playing at a speed at which the tuner's needle stabilizes at zero, I've adjusted the speed to a definite half-step at A-440 (the frequency of the tuner can be adjusted to 435 or whatever you like.)  It's easy enough to make a second pass at a half step higher and/or lower as well and record all three, should you wish to do so.
>
> The crucial step beforehand is to center the record.  I had a machine shop grind down the spindle 1/16th and move the edge of the record with my fingernail until the cartridge no longer swings.  I also had made a metal sleeve that fits over the spindle that restores the original diameter.  The machine shop behind my studio made this.  The spindle mechanism for the 1200-2 is about $ 60.  It's a bit tricky to swap out the original spindle with the replacement, so I paid a technician to do this. Another $ 50.  I believe Dave Cawley offers one of these.
>
> Among other things, this process bypasses the Continental 78 rpm and U.S. 78.26 speed issue.
>
> Mr. Cawley has back-ordered an outrigger for the 1200-2 that will accommodate my old but recently internally rewired SME 16" arm that will replace the 12" one Technics sup[plied.
>
> This process does not affect stylus choice, but, if you come to this year's ARSC conference this year, my talk Saturday includes an important disclosure regarding that issue.
>
> Anyone want to by a few not-recently-used pitch pipes?  SP-15s?
>
> If you need a digital readout of the speed you use for your metadata, products are available to do this at about $ 300.
>
> As I do not have perfect pitch, I find this process very much more efficient.   The remaining problem is adjusting a record side that changes speed while playing.
>
> Steve Smolian
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Haley
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:12 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>
> Ben,
>
> The advice is all pertinent, but here's some simpler advice.   A great many
> 78's do not play at 78 or 78.26 RPM.  They are irregular, and it is always best to check the pitch and correct it by ear.  I use a Yamaha electronic piano that has pitch at exactly A= 440, top dead center.  With careful listening, you can hear very, very small pitch differences--not really that hard.  This is far more reliable than trying to figure it out based on playback speed, with all the charts and math.  At best, that will just give you a good jumping off place.
> Getting the pitch right is VERY important.  A quarter tone off drastically changes the sound of most voices and a great many instruments.  that can also can change the emotional character of the music quite a bit.  Larger pitch variations can easily wreck everything.
>
> A different issue is: what is the right pitch?   That is another lengthy
> discussion.
>
> Best,
> John Haley
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Corey Bailey<[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>    
>> The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all
>> of the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
>>
>> Corey
>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
>> www.baileyzone.net
>>
>>
>> On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
>>
>>      
>>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number
>>> of poles in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the
>>> gearbox that changes the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the
>>> turntable. But it is only this figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If
>>> you had a slow-speed synchronous motor run off 60 Hz the closest to
>>> 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope for
>>> 60 Hz
>>> under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent
>>> lamps off the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
>>>
>>> In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as
>>> the mains frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You
>>> need a different stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed
>>> synchronous motor would have a different number of poles. Aida
>>> Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso stroboscopes came in both
>>> varieties.
>>>
>>> The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic
>>> period as specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction
>>> of the recording obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not
>>> have absolute pitch.
>>> In the
>>> acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked
>>> every morning by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax
>>> while cutting and counting the revolutions for a minute. They
>>> preferred 78 rpm!
>>>
>>> In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded
>>> to an a4 of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military
>>> bands until ca.
>>> 1926,
>>> when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If
>>> you hear Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream
>>> Guards in
>>> 1905 with
>>> the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you
>>> play
>>> it: they
>>> used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military
>>> bands, and they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the
>>> same time the bands changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the
>>> fraction 78/80 is very nearly the same as the fraction 439/452, in
>>> other words if you played a Columbia band record in 1932 you would
>>> not know whether it was an early recording slowed down to 78 or
>>> whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and the
>>> new speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the
>>> dialectic
>>> triangle:
>>> speed, key, and standard pitch".
>>>
>>> I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>>>> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were
>>>> used in cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78
>>>> usually meant 78.00.
>>>> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15,
>>>> 78 actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be
>>>> calculated from that.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________
>>>>
>>>> Gary Galo
>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>>
>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>>
>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>>
>>>> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
>>>> To: Gary A. Galo
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>>>
>>>> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know
>>>> if 80RPM records included a fraction.  LPs, of course are always
>>>> based on 33 1/3 RPM, so there would be no reason to relate anything
>>>> to 33.00 RPM.  I'm sure the original question was searching for a
>>>> corrective adjustment to adapt from standard 78 to Columbia's 80
>>>> RPM, but that's only a guess.
>>>>
>>>> db
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo
>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant
>>>> 78.26, you would have said so.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>>> On Behalf Of DAVID BURNHAM
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>>>
>>>> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
>>>> Not challenging you just a question.
>>>> db
>>>>
>>>>       On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo
>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%.
>>>> So, the difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a
>>>> quarter tone. A quarter tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________
>>>>
>>>> Gary Galo
>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>>
>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>>
>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>>> On Behalf Of James Roth
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>>>
>>>> Hello everybody,
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Ben Roth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>
>>>        
>>      
>    

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