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ISOJAC  March 2000

ISOJAC March 2000

Subject:

Valencian: suggestion should be rejected

From:

John Clews <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:12:27 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (535 lines)

Dear Haavard

In relation to your ISO 639-1 Annex C draft proposal for Valencian,
I received the following emails. It is clear that the term
"Valencian" should be completely removed from any proposals for any
part of ISO 639.

I received several emails stating this (appended below) and none
stating the opposite. Nor does it seem at all likely that there will
be any requests requesting the addition of a code for the

There are Valencian and Balearic dialects of Catalan, but not
separate languages. The _term_ Valencian is sometimes used, but only
as follows (quoting the "Institut d'Estudis Catalans - Statutes"
(English edition), Barcelona: Institut d'Estudis Catalans, 1998.

This states in the "Final Provision", following the previous 14
articles of the Institut:

        "The language referred to in Article 2, a, is understood to
        be the language universally known as Catalan in Romance
        Linguistics, without prejuduce to its vernacular names and
        the name "Valencian" used in Organic Law 5/1982 of 1 July,
        and in any legal provisions that may modify this or derive
        therefrom."

I also append various other independent comments which back this up,
which I received by email within the last couple of weeks.

I hope that Annex C of the draft of ISO 639-1 will be amended, and
that ISO 639 JAC will take note when it next reviews Valencian, and
reject it (this was deferred from the 17-18 February meeting).

Best regards

John Clews



------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:43:04 +0100
From: "Dpt. Filologia Catalana" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ISO 639
To: [log in to unmask]
Reply-to: "Dpt."@blues.uab.es, [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Universitat Autrnoma de Barcelona

Catalan and Valencian, together with Balearic and other geographical
variants, are regional variants of the same language, traditionally
know by linguistics and philoloques as catalan.

Anna Bartra
Philology Catalan Department
UAB

------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Juli Pereto" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Very important message for the ISO committee
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:58:19 +0100

John Clews,
SESAME Computer Projects,
8 Avenue Rd,
Harrogate, HG2 7PG
GREAT BRITAIN
                                         Valencia, February 14th 2000.

Dear Sir,

Having been informed of the ISO project, I ask you to take into
account the enclosed report, written by Dr Antoni Ferrando, Professor
of Catalan Philology at this University and Director of the "Institut
Interuniversitari de Filologia Valenciana" (University of Valencia,
University of Castello and University of Alacant), which clearly
explains the scientific basis of our proposal for the name of the
language to be used under the ISO Code.

Sincerely Yours,


Professor Pedro Ruiz Torres
Rector
University of Valencia



REPORT:

The proposal of presenting Valencian as a different language from
Catalan under the ISO code lacks any minimum scientific basis, since
both Valencian and Catalan refer to the same language, such as
Flemish and Dutch, or Castilian and Spanish, also refer to the same
language.

Since neither the name Flemish nor the name Castilian appear in the
list, the proposal of ISO is totally unacceptable, for it is not only
not scientific but also totally incoherent. There are only two
solutions for languages with two diferent historical names:

a) either one adopts exclusively the most commonly used by the
scientific community (Catalan, Dutch, Spanish, etc.); or

b) the doble name should be expressed under the same item in order to
indicate that it is the same language (Catalan/Valencian,
Dutch/Flemish, Spanish/Castilian, etc.)

This standard, which validates both names, is the one used by the
three Valencian Universities which include Studies in Philology in
their programmes and develop their research projects in the
Interuniversitary Institute of Valencian Philology (IIFV), i.e. the
University of Valencia, the University "Jaume I" of Castell=F3 and
the University of Alacant.

Prof. Antoni Ferrando
Director, IIFV

------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:15:10 +0100
To: [log in to unmask]
From: David Basora i Bosch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Very important

Mr. John Clews

Ad the suggestion of Mr. Jaume Pag=E8s, president of the network of
universities Institut Joan Llu=EDs Vives and rector of the
Universitat Polit=E8cnica de Catalunya I send you following brief
regarding to ISO 639:

=ABThe Institut Joan Llu=EDs Vives is a network of seventeen
universities whose aim is to encourage relations between university
institutions in Catalonia, the Valencian Community, the Balearic
Islands, Northern Catalonia and Andorra, and other territories having
common geographical, historical, cultural and linguistic ties.

The aims of the Institut Joan Llu=EDs Vives can be summarised as
follows:

=B7 To augment the interchange of scientific, technical and cultural
knowledge and improve the proper exploitation of human and material
resources in its universities.

=B7 To promote joint action in relation to teaching, research,
linguistic standardisation and diffusion of the Catalan cultures.

=B7 To facilitate mobility of students, lecturers and administrative
staff.=

=B7 To encourage the joint organisation of courses, seminars,
congresses and all kind of scientific and cultural meetings.

=B7 To promote co-ordination in edition and diffusion of publications
of the universities, and to foster their circulation. It similarly
aims to facilitate the exchange of documentation.

=B7 To undertake jointly activities relating to university
development and further education, and to co-ordinate summer courses
within a common organizational framework.

=B7 To promote the creation of a common virtual campus.

The proposal of presenting Valencian as a different language from
Catalan under the ISO code lacks any minimum scientific basis, since
both Valencian and Catalan refer to the same language, just like
Flemish and Dutch or Castilian and Spanish apply to the same language
as well.

Since neither the name Flemish nor the name Castilian appear in the
list, the proposal of ISO is totally unacceptable, for it is not only
non-scientific but also totally incoherent. There are only two
solutions for languages with two diferent historical names:

a) either one adopts exclusively the most commonly used term by the
scientific community (Catalan, Dutch, Spanish, etc.);

b) or the double name should be expressed under the same term in
order to indicate that it is the same language (Catalan/Valencian,
Dutch/Flemish, Spanish/Castilian, etc.)

This standard, which validates both names, is the one used by the
Valencian universities which include studies in Philology in their
programmes.=BB

Associated universities of Institut Joan Llu=EDs Vives

Universitat d'Alacant
Universitat d'Andorra
Universitat Aut=F2noma de Barcelona
Universitat de Barcelona
Universitat de Girona
Universitat de les Illes Balears
Universitat Internacional de Catalunya
Universitat Jaume I
Universitat de Lleida
Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
Universitat de Perpiny=E0
Universitat Polit=E8cnica de Catalunya
Universitat Pompeu Fabra
Universitat Ramon Llull
Universitat Rovira i Virgili
Universitat de Val=E8ncia
Universitat de Vic


Yours sincerely,



David Basora i Bosch
Secretari executiu
Xarxa d'universitats Institut Joan Llu=EDs Vives
[log in to unmask]
www.vives.org
Tel. 964 72 89 93
Fax  964 72 89 92

------------------------------------------------------------

Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Addressed to Mr. John Clews
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:40:46 +0100
Importance: high

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01BF796E.221736E0
Content-Type: text/plain;

----------------UOCGENERATED031070
content-type: application/octet-stream; name="Clews.doc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Clews.doc"


------------------------------------------------------------

Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:34:25 +0000
Subject: <no subject>
From: "Maria Josep Cuenca" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]


Dear Sir,

We have observed an anomaly in ISO 639 concerning Valencian, which is
included as a language. Academics all over the world agree that
Catalan and Valencian, together with Balearic and other geografical
variants, are regional variants of the same language. The popular use
of Valencian as synonym of Catalan in this region, and its political
misuse, do not allow such a denomination in scientific and all other
kind of formal texts.

Sincerely,


Maria-Josep Cuenca
Universitat de Val=E8ncia (Spain)

------------------------------------------------------------


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 22 02:39:31 2000
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:33:06 +0100
To: [log in to unmask]
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Llu=EDs_B=2E_Polanco_Roig=22?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Languages on Earth



                                Val=E8ncia (Spain) 18-02-00

M John Claus
Dear Sir,

        As a lecturer on Sociolinguistics at the University of
        Val=E8ncia, I have been disappointed since I have known about
        your proposal of Classification of some of the Languages of
        the World (ISO 639 Norm), as it includes some important
        inconsistencies.

        In particular, I would point at the wrong separation between
        Catalan (ca) an Valencian (??), the latter being in fact a
        set of varieties extremely similar to those of Catalonia (in
        fact, identical to the West Catalan ones) and internationally
        classified together with them (and those of the Balearic
        Islands, northern Catalonia in France, and Alghero in Italy)
        into a single language known everywhere as Catalan.

        I hope that these informations, that you can test in any
        basic reader of the languages of the world, will help the ISO
        to correct their proposals.

        Sincerely yours,


                                Llu=EDs B. Polanco Roig
                                Senior Lecturer
                                University of Val=E8ncia

------------------------------------------------------------

From: Manuel Perez Saldana <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:18:14 +0000
Subject: Valencian language
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Authenticated: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Status: R

Dear sir,


Catalan and Valencian, together with Balearic and other geografical variants,
are regional variants of the same language, traditionally know by linguistics
and philologues as catalan.

Manuel Perez Saldanya
Professor,
Universitat de Valencia (Spain)

------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:25:25 +0100
From: "JAUME PREZ" <[log in to unmask]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [es] (Win98; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ISO 639

Dear Mr. John Clews:

    I just want to tell you that an error has been detected in the
    Iso 639 list: Valencian has been listed there as a different
    language and, as you may know, Valencian, Catalan and Balearic,
    as well as other regional denominations are just variants of the
    same language, traditionally known among writers, linguists and
    scholars as Catalan.

    I am a professor of Catalan Literature at the University of
    Valencia and President of the Catalan Writers Association (AELC).

    Sincerely,
    Jaume Prez Montaner


------------------------------------------------------------

> From: Sebasti Pla <[log in to unmask]>
> Organization: Blackadder & Co.
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Valencian = Catalan
> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:11:05 +0100

Hi John

I've read the list of languages for the ISO 639 standard. You
include Valencian, marked with --- --- --- (??). There is
not a Valencian language. It is the name which the
people in the Valencian country give to the variant of the
catalan language they speak. There is a movement claiming it=20
is a different language, but this movement is inspired by
political reasons, without any ground on real language.

By the way, I'm valencian, and of course I speak catalan.

If you want further information, feel free to contact me.

Best regards. Sebasti=E0 Pla.

--
History shows that people who don't value freedom
enough to defend it will tend to lose it.=20
=09=09=09      Richard M. Stallman

------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 12:34:27 +0100
From: Jaume Badiella i Aguilera <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Organitzaci=F3=3F=20Qu=E8=20=E9s=20aix=F2=3F?=
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD  [ca] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686)
X-Accept-Language: ca, gl, es-ES, fr, pt, it, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Perill blaver
References: <[log in to unmask]>

"Sebasti=E0 Pla" ha escrit:
>=20
> CALIU: CAtalan LInux Users - http://www.http2.com/caliu.ct
>=20
> Hola
>=20
> Encara que =E9s totalment off-topic, ho envio a la llista. Si mireu
> el missatge que adjunto, veureu que el valenci=E0 podria arribar
> a tenir un codi ISO diferent del catal=E0. Jo he escrit a l'adre=E7a
> que cita, explicant-li que catal=E0 =E9s igual a valenci=E0 del nord :-=
)
> Per=F2 tenint en compte els valencians que hi ha a la llista
> (jo mateix s=F3c un d'ells), potser alg=FA tindr=E0 contactes amb
> el m=F3n acad=E8mic i podr=E0 fer una gesti=F3 de m=E9s abast.
>=20
> Sebasti=E0.
>=20
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=

LINGUIST List: Vol-11-230
------- End of forwarded message -------

As stated in section 2, I'm replying directly to you. My comment is about=
 Valencian and Catalan. This list presents them as being two differents=
 languages, while they are the *same* language (like american and british=
 english). Valencian is only dilectal variant of Catalan, as recognized by=
 every University and Language Academy in the world. I would ask you to=
 eliminate Valencian from that list, based on the facts I've exposed.

The Language Academy for Catalan (and therefore for Valencian) is the=
 Institut d'Estudis Catalans (Catalan Studies Institute). Their web page is=
 http://www.iec.es. Sadly, by now it's only in Catalan, but you can send=
 them your enquiries in english:

Institut d=92Estudis Catalans
C. del Carme, 47
08001 Barcelona
Spain

Phone:  0034932 701 620
Fax: 0034932 701 180

Or by e-mail: [log in to unmask]

For more information, you can reach this link (in english):

* University of California, Berkeley Department of Spanish & Portuguese=
 Group in Romance Philology:
  http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/~catalan/index.html - University of=
 California, Berkeley

Thank you for your attention. I hope you will count on this fact about=
 Valencian and Catalan.


Pau Garcia i Quiles 2:346/3.25@fidonet
Elx (Alacant) - Coordinador de traduccions del CALIU
Si vols pert=E0nyer a Fidonet, una xarxa amb correu electr=F2nic de=
 qualitat, i sense spam, pregunta'm com.
Uneix-te al CALIU: Catalan Linux Users Group. Linux en catal=E0!


------------------------------------------------------------

Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:19:39 +0100
From: Claus Pusch <[log in to unmask]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [de] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: de
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Languages listed in ISO 639

Dear John,

Sorry for replying with such a delay - I have studied your comparative
list but only manage to comment on it after having read the summary on
the LINGUIST.

Some remarks concerning Romance languages:

1. CATALAN: Sebasti Pla is completely right in claiming that:

> There is
> not a Valencian language. It is the name which the
> people in the Valencian country give to the variant of the
> catalan language they speak. There is a movement claiming it=20
> is a different language, but this movement is inspired by
> political reasons, without any ground on real language.

Linguistically speaking, Valencian is a major Western Catalan dialect.
There is no reason to classify it as independent language. There are
more dubious cases in the list, where classification follows political
rather than linguistic reasons, e.g. Letzebuergisch (which is a
Franconian-Mosellan dialect of German, a fact that most Letzebuergisch
speakers will not deny, although Letzebuergisch is the official
"national language" of the Grand-Duch du Luxembourg) or Corsican
(which, for many Romance linguists, is a variety of Tuscan Italian). The
Valencian case should not be compared to these as there are heavy
dialectal differences e.g. between "Continental" Italian and Corsican
and within Corsican; this is not the case in Catalan where dialect
divergences are comparatively small. As a Western Catalan dialect,
Valencian is very close to the Catalan spoken e.g. in Andorra.


Sincerely,

Claus

--
******************
Dr. Claus Dieter Pusch
******************
Albert-Ludwigs-Universitaet Freiburg im Breisgau
Romanisches Seminar - Lehrstuhl Prof. Raible
(office) Werthmannplatz 3 - D-79085 Freiburg im Breisgau
(home) Ibentalstrasse 15a - D-79256 Buchenbach
Fon (office) +49/761/203-3172  (home) +49/7661/6310
Fax (office) +49/761/203-3195  (home) +49/7661/6310
http://omnibus.uni-freiburg.de/~pusch/

------------------------------------------------------------

--
John Clews, SESAME Computer Projects, 8 Avenue Rd, Harrogate, HG2 7PG
tel: +44 1423 888 432; fax: + 44 1423 889061;
Email: [log in to unmask]

Committee Chair of  ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages;
Committee Member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC22/WG20: Internationalization;
Committee Member of CEN/TC304: Information and Communications
 Technologies: European Localization Requirements
Committee Member of TS/1: Terminology (UK national member body of
 ISO/TC37: Terminology)
Committee Member of the Foundation for Endangered Languages;
Committee Member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC2: Coded Character Sets

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