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ISOJAC  February 2001

ISOJAC February 2001

Subject:

Re: AW: (2 of 3) Reply: adding more 2-letter codes

From:

John Clews <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:30:56 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (299 lines)

Agreement!

In message <[log in to unmask]>
Christian Galinski writes via [log in to unmask]:

> As the alpha-2 code
> - should not and cannot be governed by the rule that it must be complete
> - should not be filled-up to the end in order to make it unchangeable
> forever
> - should only be assigned according to the rules for ISO 639-1 entries
> - should, therefore, not contain 'old' language which are not used in
> scitech communication today
> - etc.
> many - probably most - of the languages of the list do not qualify.
>
> This has nothing to do with any disrespect for these languages - only wit> h
> the 'pragmatic' inner logic of the alpha-2 code.
>
> So every language has to be investigated one by one.

1. Good - let's investigate them one by one. Could we have some
   comments on thoe below, one by one?

2. In passing, where in ISO 639-1 is it documented that "old" languages
   do not qualify?

I look forward to hearing from you all on the JAC list on these
points.

Best regards

John Clews







>
> Regards
> Christian
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag
> von John Clews
> Gesendet am: 21 February 2001 18:40
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: (2 of 3) Reply: adding more 2-letter codes
>
> Dear Haavard
>
> Here are some further follow up comments.
>
> >>>>    You invited comments prior to finalising ISO 639-1,
>         about additional codes to include.
>
> >>>>    My comments are all flagged by >>>> as here, embedded
>         in your text below.
>
> >>>>    I would like formally to request 2-letter codes for
>         several of the languages that you identify.
>
> >>>>    You proposed several suggested 2-letter codes in an
>         earlier ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 document: information from this was
>         also collated by me in document ISO/TC37/SC2 N217.
>         I shall write further on these ISO/TC37/SC2 documents in a
>         separate email: below I mainly reply to your own email text.
>
> > Date:         Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:34:49 +0100
> > Reply-To: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sender: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Hjulstad?= <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject:      Before we freeze 639-1
> > Comments: To: CEN TC304 Secretariat <[log in to unmask]>,
> >           Polish Standard <[log in to unmask]>,
> >           "[log in to unmask] Gov" <[log in to unmask]>,
> >           "[log in to unmask] Dk" <[log in to unmask]>,
> >           ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I have no problems appreciating the arguments to freeze the alpha-2
> list at the date of publication of the new 639-1. After that date,
> ONLY items that have previously NOT been in the alpha-3 list, are
> candidates for inclusion in the alpha-2 list.
>
> I am in the process of finalizing 639-1. There are a few loose
> threads ... I invite you all to use the 639 database to get further
> information.
>
> (a) There are 4 items in 639-2 that are "deferred" in 639-1. These
> items need to be ACCEPTED or REJECTED, as "deferred" no longer is an
> option (since the items are "accepted" in 639-2).
>
> These 4 items are:
>
>   chr - Cherokee - cherokee - A North American Indian language used by so> me
> 20.000 in USA.
>   kum - Kumyk - koumyk - A Turkic language in Russia; some 300.000 users.
>   lez - Lezghian - lezghien - A North Caucasian language in Russia; some
> 450.000 users.
>   nds - Low German, Low Saxon - bas allemand - A Germanic languag in
> Germany. Practically all users are bilingual with (High) German, and they
> are difficult to count. It is, however, considered a distinct language by
> linguists.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for all four
>         languages identified above.
>
> I invite any discussion about possible inclusion in 639-1. Unless anyone
> speaks in favour of any of these items, I will change their status from
> "deferred" to "rejected".
>
> >>>>    There was no date set for dealing with defered items at the
>         JAC meeting. They should _NOT_ be rejected by default,
>         without discussion.
>
> >>>>    I was asked to represent CEN/TC304 at the JAC meeting.
>         I was concerned at the lack of discussion on these languages.
>         I would ask for a detailed discussion on ALL the codes
>         requested by CEN/TC304, which were also incorporated in
>         various ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 papers that you prepared: see above.
>
> >>>>    NB: this is also covered in my subsequent email.
>
> (b) There are 9 items in 639-2 that are "rejected" in 639-1. These items
> will remain "rejected", unless anyone NOW makes a formal proposal to
> re-address the issue in the JAC. The items are:
>   efi - Efik - efik - A Volta-Congo language in Nigeria.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for the above
>         language.
>
>   fur - Friulian - frioulan - A Romance language in Italy.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Friulian.
>
>   lad - Ladinp - jud=E9o-espagnol, ladino - A Romance language,
>         somewhat used in Israel.
>
> >>>>    Unless "Ladinp" is just the result of text in emails being
>         munged before it reached me, this should read Ladino.
>         There are users in many countries besides Israel, as a result
>         of various diasporas within Europe. Publications are also
>         produced in Turkey, and it is historically important among
>         Dutch and English Jewish populations.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Ladino.
>
>   man - Mandingo - mandingue - A Mande language in Senegal.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Mandingo.
>
>   mnc - Manchu - ? - An Altaic language in China.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Manchu,
>         given its cultural importance in China.
>
>   peo - Old Persian - vieux perse - An ancient Iranian language.
>
> >>>>    No view on this. It should be more accurately identified in
>         ISO 639-2 as well. Can LC staff provide any data, e.g. list
>         of books in LC, OCLC or RLIN that use this code?
>
>   rom - Romany, Romani - romani, tsigane - An Indo-Aryan language
>   used in many countries.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Romani.
>
>   sco - Lowlands Scots, Scots, Lallans - lallans - A Germanic
>   language in Great Britain.
>
> >>>>    NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Scots.
>         This has official status for use in the UK, and in Ireland,
>         mainly as part of the Good Friday Agreement between Ireland
>         and the UK and various parties in Northern Ireland, and also
>         has some (slightly lesser) status in Scotland. Information on
>         the status of various languages can be found on the official
>         website which covers the Good Friday agreement and the
>         cross-border bodies which were set up.
>
>   sgn - Sign languages
>
> >>>>    Ideally I would like to see it encoded. However, ISO 639
>         itself did not list "groups" of languages. Should it do so
>         here? How do we avoid ignoring it? There is terminological
>         need, considering that there will be various dictionaries
>         covering (various) sign language(s).
>
> (c) There are some 260 items in 639-2 that are NOT CONSIDERED for inclusi> on
> in 639-1 (in the sense that no formal proposal has been submitted). The l> ist
> is enclosed as an RTF file: xxNot-639-1.rtf
>
> PLEASE STUDY THIS LIST CAREFULLY.
>
> >>>>    NB: I could not read the RTF file propserly for some reason.
>         Please could you supply it on paper (by post) or as an
>         attached Word document? Those transfer much better for some
>         reason.
>
> >>>     In response to your own analysis, I would formally like to
>         request the addition of 2-letter codes for several of those
>         that you list - see further embedded comments, also the
>         email which follows this.
>
> There are 7 items that (probably) have more than 10.000.000 users:
>
>   awa, ceb, lah, mad, mag, mai, mwr.
>
> >>>>    As a result, there should be 2-letter codes for all 7.
>
> >>>>    I also circulated a paper on larger languages to the JAC.
>         This has also been circulated to ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 as
>         ISO/TC37/SC2 N 216. You may like to add further languages to
>         that as a result.
>
> There are 48 items that (probably) have between 1.000.000 and 9.999.999
> users:
>
>   ace, ban, bej, bem, bik, btk, bug, din, doi, dyu, fon, gon, hil,
>   hmn, ilo, kab, kar, kmb, kok, kru, lol, lua, luo, mak, men, min,
>   mni, mos, nso, nyn, pag, pam, raj, sas, sat, shn, sid, snk, son,
>   suk, tem, tiv, tog, tum, umb, wal, yao, znd.
>
> >>>>    As a result, there should be 2-letter codes for all 48.
>
> Since the question of "official status" of a language is an issue in 639-> 1,
> I would like to mention the following items in particular:
>
>   nso - Northern Sotho - sotho du Nord - A Volta-Congo language in Botswa> na
> and South Africa. This is one of the official languages in South Africa. > All
> the others have alpha-2 identifiers: af, en, nr, ss, tn, ts, ve, xh, zu.
>
>   pau - Palauan - palau - A Malayo-Polynesian language with status as
> "national language" in the Republic of Palau. There are not many users, b> ut
> then there are only 15.000 people in the whole country.
>
> I WOULD LIKE TO PROPOSE THAT BOTH THESE ITEMS ARE GIVEN ALPHA-2 IDENTIFIE> RS.
>
> >>>>    I agree with 2-letter codes for both of these languages.
>         NB: prefer that Northern Sotho uses two letters from the
>         combination p e d i because Pedi is the prefered name in
>         South Africa for Northern Sotho.
>
> >>>>    Note that there are further languages with official status
>         for which there should also be 2-letter codes available:
>         see my subsequent email.
>
> A third item in this cateogry is a bit different. The official language o> f
> the Rupublic of Seychelles is a Creole language currently encoded as "crp> "
> (Creoles and pidgins (Other)). I guess the language of the Seychelles is
> really not in 639-2 either, and it could be proposed.
>
> >>>>    I certainly propose it. I am in contact with various  experts
>         in SOAS, London who can provide much more detailed
>         information on Creole languages if necessary.
>
> >>>>>   NB: this language is properly known as Seselwa (cf. the
>         description Seychellois) and considered distinct from a
>         Creole (see for example the treatment of Seselwa compared to
>         other language names decribed as Creoles in the Ethnologue).
>         As a result it would be useful to derive a 2-letter code from
>         within the letters s e s e l w a in order to meet ISO 639-1
>         conventions.
>
>
> Best regards,
> H=E5vard Hjulstad
>
> -------------------------
> H=E5vard Hjulstad    mailto:[log in to unmask]
>   R=E5det for teknisk terminologi (RTT)
>   (Norwegian Council for Technical Terminology)
>   Postboks 660 Sk=F8yen
>   NO-0214  Oslo, Norway
>   tel: +47-22049225, dir: +47-22049259
>   faks: +47-22434224
>   http://www.rtt.org/
> -------------------------
>
> >>>>    I look forward to seeing your response, and also any other
>         comments from JAC members, and also actuall 2-letter code
>         proposals for the language discussed above.
>
> Best regards
>
> John Clews

--
John Clews, SESAME Computer Projects, 8 Avenue Rd, Harrogate, HG2 7PG
tel: +44 1423 888 432; fax: + 44 1423 889061;
Email: [log in to unmask]

Committee Chair of  ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages;
Committee Member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC22/WG20: Internationalization;
Committee Member of ISO/TC37: Terminology

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