Agreement!
In message <[log in to unmask]>
Christian Galinski writes via [log in to unmask]:
> As the alpha-2 code
> - should not and cannot be governed by the rule that it must be complete
> - should not be filled-up to the end in order to make it unchangeable
> forever
> - should only be assigned according to the rules for ISO 639-1 entries
> - should, therefore, not contain 'old' language which are not used in
> scitech communication today
> - etc.
> many - probably most - of the languages of the list do not qualify.
>
> This has nothing to do with any disrespect for these languages - only wit> h
> the 'pragmatic' inner logic of the alpha-2 code.
>
> So every language has to be investigated one by one.
1. Good - let's investigate them one by one. Could we have some
comments on thoe below, one by one?
2. In passing, where in ISO 639-1 is it documented that "old" languages
do not qualify?
I look forward to hearing from you all on the JAC list on these
points.
Best regards
John Clews
>
> Regards
> Christian
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag
> von John Clews
> Gesendet am: 21 February 2001 18:40
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: (2 of 3) Reply: adding more 2-letter codes
>
> Dear Haavard
>
> Here are some further follow up comments.
>
> >>>> You invited comments prior to finalising ISO 639-1,
> about additional codes to include.
>
> >>>> My comments are all flagged by >>>> as here, embedded
> in your text below.
>
> >>>> I would like formally to request 2-letter codes for
> several of the languages that you identify.
>
> >>>> You proposed several suggested 2-letter codes in an
> earlier ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 document: information from this was
> also collated by me in document ISO/TC37/SC2 N217.
> I shall write further on these ISO/TC37/SC2 documents in a
> separate email: below I mainly reply to your own email text.
>
> > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:34:49 +0100
> > Reply-To: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sender: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Hjulstad?= <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Before we freeze 639-1
> > Comments: To: CEN TC304 Secretariat <[log in to unmask]>,
> > Polish Standard <[log in to unmask]>,
> > "[log in to unmask] Gov" <[log in to unmask]>,
> > "[log in to unmask] Dk" <[log in to unmask]>,
> > ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I have no problems appreciating the arguments to freeze the alpha-2
> list at the date of publication of the new 639-1. After that date,
> ONLY items that have previously NOT been in the alpha-3 list, are
> candidates for inclusion in the alpha-2 list.
>
> I am in the process of finalizing 639-1. There are a few loose
> threads ... I invite you all to use the 639 database to get further
> information.
>
> (a) There are 4 items in 639-2 that are "deferred" in 639-1. These
> items need to be ACCEPTED or REJECTED, as "deferred" no longer is an
> option (since the items are "accepted" in 639-2).
>
> These 4 items are:
>
> chr - Cherokee - cherokee - A North American Indian language used by so> me
> 20.000 in USA.
> kum - Kumyk - koumyk - A Turkic language in Russia; some 300.000 users.
> lez - Lezghian - lezghien - A North Caucasian language in Russia; some
> 450.000 users.
> nds - Low German, Low Saxon - bas allemand - A Germanic languag in
> Germany. Practically all users are bilingual with (High) German, and they
> are difficult to count. It is, however, considered a distinct language by
> linguists.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for all four
> languages identified above.
>
> I invite any discussion about possible inclusion in 639-1. Unless anyone
> speaks in favour of any of these items, I will change their status from
> "deferred" to "rejected".
>
> >>>> There was no date set for dealing with defered items at the
> JAC meeting. They should _NOT_ be rejected by default,
> without discussion.
>
> >>>> I was asked to represent CEN/TC304 at the JAC meeting.
> I was concerned at the lack of discussion on these languages.
> I would ask for a detailed discussion on ALL the codes
> requested by CEN/TC304, which were also incorporated in
> various ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 papers that you prepared: see above.
>
> >>>> NB: this is also covered in my subsequent email.
>
> (b) There are 9 items in 639-2 that are "rejected" in 639-1. These items
> will remain "rejected", unless anyone NOW makes a formal proposal to
> re-address the issue in the JAC. The items are:
> efi - Efik - efik - A Volta-Congo language in Nigeria.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for the above
> language.
>
> fur - Friulian - frioulan - A Romance language in Italy.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Friulian.
>
> lad - Ladinp - jud=E9o-espagnol, ladino - A Romance language,
> somewhat used in Israel.
>
> >>>> Unless "Ladinp" is just the result of text in emails being
> munged before it reached me, this should read Ladino.
> There are users in many countries besides Israel, as a result
> of various diasporas within Europe. Publications are also
> produced in Turkey, and it is historically important among
> Dutch and English Jewish populations.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Ladino.
>
> man - Mandingo - mandingue - A Mande language in Senegal.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Mandingo.
>
> mnc - Manchu - ? - An Altaic language in China.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Manchu,
> given its cultural importance in China.
>
> peo - Old Persian - vieux perse - An ancient Iranian language.
>
> >>>> No view on this. It should be more accurately identified in
> ISO 639-2 as well. Can LC staff provide any data, e.g. list
> of books in LC, OCLC or RLIN that use this code?
>
> rom - Romany, Romani - romani, tsigane - An Indo-Aryan language
> used in many countries.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Romani.
>
> sco - Lowlands Scots, Scots, Lallans - lallans - A Germanic
> language in Great Britain.
>
> >>>> NB: a 2-letter code should be provided for Scots.
> This has official status for use in the UK, and in Ireland,
> mainly as part of the Good Friday Agreement between Ireland
> and the UK and various parties in Northern Ireland, and also
> has some (slightly lesser) status in Scotland. Information on
> the status of various languages can be found on the official
> website which covers the Good Friday agreement and the
> cross-border bodies which were set up.
>
> sgn - Sign languages
>
> >>>> Ideally I would like to see it encoded. However, ISO 639
> itself did not list "groups" of languages. Should it do so
> here? How do we avoid ignoring it? There is terminological
> need, considering that there will be various dictionaries
> covering (various) sign language(s).
>
> (c) There are some 260 items in 639-2 that are NOT CONSIDERED for inclusi> on
> in 639-1 (in the sense that no formal proposal has been submitted). The l> ist
> is enclosed as an RTF file: xxNot-639-1.rtf
>
> PLEASE STUDY THIS LIST CAREFULLY.
>
> >>>> NB: I could not read the RTF file propserly for some reason.
> Please could you supply it on paper (by post) or as an
> attached Word document? Those transfer much better for some
> reason.
>
> >>> In response to your own analysis, I would formally like to
> request the addition of 2-letter codes for several of those
> that you list - see further embedded comments, also the
> email which follows this.
>
> There are 7 items that (probably) have more than 10.000.000 users:
>
> awa, ceb, lah, mad, mag, mai, mwr.
>
> >>>> As a result, there should be 2-letter codes for all 7.
>
> >>>> I also circulated a paper on larger languages to the JAC.
> This has also been circulated to ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 as
> ISO/TC37/SC2 N 216. You may like to add further languages to
> that as a result.
>
> There are 48 items that (probably) have between 1.000.000 and 9.999.999
> users:
>
> ace, ban, bej, bem, bik, btk, bug, din, doi, dyu, fon, gon, hil,
> hmn, ilo, kab, kar, kmb, kok, kru, lol, lua, luo, mak, men, min,
> mni, mos, nso, nyn, pag, pam, raj, sas, sat, shn, sid, snk, son,
> suk, tem, tiv, tog, tum, umb, wal, yao, znd.
>
> >>>> As a result, there should be 2-letter codes for all 48.
>
> Since the question of "official status" of a language is an issue in 639-> 1,
> I would like to mention the following items in particular:
>
> nso - Northern Sotho - sotho du Nord - A Volta-Congo language in Botswa> na
> and South Africa. This is one of the official languages in South Africa. > All
> the others have alpha-2 identifiers: af, en, nr, ss, tn, ts, ve, xh, zu.
>
> pau - Palauan - palau - A Malayo-Polynesian language with status as
> "national language" in the Republic of Palau. There are not many users, b> ut
> then there are only 15.000 people in the whole country.
>
> I WOULD LIKE TO PROPOSE THAT BOTH THESE ITEMS ARE GIVEN ALPHA-2 IDENTIFIE> RS.
>
> >>>> I agree with 2-letter codes for both of these languages.
> NB: prefer that Northern Sotho uses two letters from the
> combination p e d i because Pedi is the prefered name in
> South Africa for Northern Sotho.
>
> >>>> Note that there are further languages with official status
> for which there should also be 2-letter codes available:
> see my subsequent email.
>
> A third item in this cateogry is a bit different. The official language o> f
> the Rupublic of Seychelles is a Creole language currently encoded as "crp> "
> (Creoles and pidgins (Other)). I guess the language of the Seychelles is
> really not in 639-2 either, and it could be proposed.
>
> >>>> I certainly propose it. I am in contact with various experts
> in SOAS, London who can provide much more detailed
> information on Creole languages if necessary.
>
> >>>>> NB: this language is properly known as Seselwa (cf. the
> description Seychellois) and considered distinct from a
> Creole (see for example the treatment of Seselwa compared to
> other language names decribed as Creoles in the Ethnologue).
> As a result it would be useful to derive a 2-letter code from
> within the letters s e s e l w a in order to meet ISO 639-1
> conventions.
>
>
> Best regards,
> H=E5vard Hjulstad
>
> -------------------------
> H=E5vard Hjulstad mailto:[log in to unmask]
> R=E5det for teknisk terminologi (RTT)
> (Norwegian Council for Technical Terminology)
> Postboks 660 Sk=F8yen
> NO-0214 Oslo, Norway
> tel: +47-22049225, dir: +47-22049259
> faks: +47-22434224
> http://www.rtt.org/
> -------------------------
>
> >>>> I look forward to seeing your response, and also any other
> comments from JAC members, and also actuall 2-letter code
> proposals for the language discussed above.
>
> Best regards
>
> John Clews
--
John Clews, SESAME Computer Projects, 8 Avenue Rd, Harrogate, HG2 7PG
tel: +44 1423 888 432; fax: + 44 1423 889061;
Email: [log in to unmask]
Committee Chair of ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages;
Committee Member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC22/WG20: Internationalization;
Committee Member of ISO/TC37: Terminology
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