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ISOJAC  November 2001

ISOJAC November 2001

Subject:

Re: Tupi ballot

From:

John Clews <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:28:11 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (329 lines)

In <[log in to unmask]>
Rebecca Guenther writes, via [log in to unmask]:

> I apologize for leaving this issue for so long, but it seems very
> complicated. Below I have formulated a ballot for our request for Tupi
> languages. We had a discussion of this previously. The language experts
> among us will want to make sure that this is clear by what is meant by
> "Tupi languages".

Surely that should be clarified before issuing a ballot?

> ...
>
> [  ]  I approve the language code.
> [  ]  I do not approve the language code.
>
> Comment: A language group that includes Tupinamba (extinct) and
> Nheengatu (modern) and their dialects.

But does it also include Guarani? Which do you intend that the name of
the language group "Tupi languages" should represent?

(a) Wider Tupic (Tupi-Guarani languages (i.e. 88 in Linguasphere terms)); or

(b) Tupian languages (including Guarani, but excluding, for example,
    Tenetehara languages (88-AAI in Linguasphere terms); or

(c) Only the languages Nhengatu and Potguara, also known in
    particular as Tupi (88-AAI-g in Linguasphere terms)?

Please bear in mind that in reply to some of the queries, the
requester stated that 'I have probably chosen the wrong name for the
language, in my request. Maybe I should have requested a code for
"tupic languages", from which Tupinamba is the most well document,
and not for "tupi" to avoid confusion with the name of the language
family.' - See below.

The original request is also ambivalent here: some of the bibliogrphy
entries cover (a), (b) and (c).

In addition, the term Tupi languages is also used in different
circumstances to cover (a), (b) or (c).

Unless it is clear whether (a), (b) or (c). is being voted on, it
seems premature to vote on whether to include Tupi languages, before
stating what Tupi languages actually means.

Please could the vote be revised, to explicitly state what is meant?

Some further more general points:

Is the Library of Congress/MARC collective code tables going to list
what is included, and at what stage?

Also, how do these lists of what are represented by particular codes
relate to the standard, or not?

Best regards

John Clews


John Clews,
Keytempo Limited (Information Management),
8 Avenue Rd, Harrogate, HG2 7PG
Email: [log in to unmask]
tel: +44 1423 888 432;

Committee Chair of  ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages;
Committee Member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC22/WG20: Internationalization;
Committee Member of ISO/TC37: Terminology

> Original request:
>
> This data was submitted on: Thursday, June 28, 2001 at 12:35:29
>
> lang_in_eng = Tupi (preferred); brazilian language
> lang_in_fre = Tupi
> ref_where_found_1 = Adams, Lucien; Matériaux pour servir à
> l'établissement d'une grammaire comparée des dialectes de la
> famille tupi; Paris, J. Maisonneuve (1896)
> lang_in_vern = Abanheenga (preferred); Tupi; Tupinamba;
> Tupinikin; Nheengatu
> ref_where_found_2 = Navarro, Eduardo; Método Moderno de Tupi
> Antigo; Editora Vozes, Rio de Janeiro (1998)
> trans_lit =
> evidence = Universidade de São Paulo (71)
>
> 1. Amorim, Antônio Brandão; Lendas em nheengatu e em português;
> in Rev. Instituto Histórico e Geográfico Brasileiro, vol. 154
> (1928)
> 2. Anchieta, Joseph de; Lirica portuguesa e tupi (1984)
> 3. Anchieta, Jose de; Poesias, manuscritos do sec xvi, em
> portugues, castelhano, latim e tupi. (1954)
> 4. Anchieta, Jose de; Auto representado na festa de sao lourenco;
> peca trilingue do sec xvi, transcrita, comentada, traduzida na
> parte tupi (1948)
> 5. Anchieta, José de, Arte de grammatica da lingoa mais usada
> costa do Brasil (1876)
> 6. Andrade, Carlos Drummond de Designativos de parentesco no
> tupi-guarani. Ii notas gerais sobre a ocorrencia da particula
> tyb, do tupi-guarani, (1944)
> 7. Araujo, Antonio de; Catecismo na língua brasílica (1952)
> 8. Araujo, Antonio de; Catecismo Brasílico (1952)
> 9. Ayrosa, Plinio; Bibliografia da lingua tupi-guarani (1943)
> 10. Ayrosa, Plinio; Caderno da lingua ou vocabulario
> portuguez-tupi .(1935)
> 11. Ayrosa, Plinio. Dos índices de relação determinativa de no
> tupí-guaraní. (1938)
> 12. Ayrosa, Plinio; Nomes das partes do corpo humano pella lingua
> do brasil, de pero de castilho (1937)
> 13. Ayrosa, Plinio; Primeiras noções de Tupi (1933)
> 14. Barbosa, Antonio Lemos; Curso de tupi antigo (1956)
> 15. Barbosa Rodrigues, J.; Poranduba Amazonense; in Anais da
> Biblioteca Nacional, vol. XIV, Rio de Janeiro (1890)
> 16. Barbosa Rodrigues, J.; Vocabulário indígena comparado; in
> Anais da Biblioteca Nacional, vol. XV, Rio de Janeiro (1892)
> 17. Barbosa Rodrigues, J.; Vocabulário Indígena com a Ortografia
> Correta; in Anais da Biblioteca Nacional, vol. XVI, Rio de
> Janeiro (1893)
> 18. Bernardino de Souza, Francisco; Capítulo preliminar do
> compêndio de doutrina cristã do Pe. Manuel Justiniano de Seixas;
> in Comissao do madeira, pará e amazonas (1875)
> 19. Bettendorff, João Felipe; Compendio da doutrina christãa na
> lingua portugueza, e brasilica (1800)
> 20. Boudin, Max Henri; Dicionario de tupi moderno (1966)
> 21. Caetano, Batista, Apontamentos sobre o abañeäenga, (1876)
> 22. Costa, Frederico, Carta pastoral de D. Frederico Costa, bispo
> do Amazonas (1909)
> 23. d'Evreux, Yves, Viagem ao norte do Brasil feita nos annos de
> 1613 a 1614, pelo padre Ivo d'Evreux, religioso capuchinho (1874)
> 24. de Léry; Histoire d'un voyage faite en la terre du bresil
> (1880)
> 25. Edelweiss, Frederico G; Estudos tupis e tupi-guarani (1969)
> 26. Edelweiss, Frederico; Carater da segunda conjugacao tupi, o
> desenvolvimento historico do predicado nominal nos, dialetos
> tupi-guaranis (1958)
> 27. Edelweiss, Frederico; Tupis e guaranis (1947)
> 28. Faria, Francisco Raimundo Correa de; Compendio da lingua
> brazilica para uzo dos que a ella se quizerem dedicar (1858)
> 29. Fernandes, Adaucto. Grammatica Tupy (1924)
> 30. Figueira, Luis; Arte da lingua brasilica (1621)
> 31. França, Ernesto Ferreira. Chrestomathia da lingua brazilica
> (1859)
> 32. Garcia, Rodolfo Augusto de Amorim; Glossario das palavras e
> phrases da lingua tupi, contidas na "histoire de la mission des
> peres capucins en l'isle de (1926)
> 33. Goncalves Dias, Antonio; Dicionario da lingua tupi (1965)
> 34. Grenand, Françoise. Pequeno dicionário da língua geral (1989)
> 35. Guimaraes, Joao Joaquim da Silva; Grammatica da lingua geral
> dos indios do brasil (1851)
> 36. Hartt, Charles Frederik; Notas sobre a lingua geral ou tupi
> moderno do amazonas (1938)
> 37. Hartt, Charles Frederik; Frases em Tupi Moderno e Português;
> in Anais da Biblioteca Nacional, vol. LI, Rio de Janeiro (1938)
> 38. Hartt, Charles Frederik; Conversação em Tupi Moderno e
> Português; in Anais da Biblioteca Nacional, vol. LI, Rio e
> Janeiro (1938)
> 39. Hurley, Henrique Jorge; Vocabulário Tupi-Português falado
> pelos tembés; in Revista do Museu Paulista, tomo XVII; 1a parte
> (1931)
> 40. Kooyama, Rokuråo, Vocabulario tupy-português-japonês (1951)
> 41. Luccock, John; Grammar and vocabulary of the tupi language
> (1880)
> 42. Machado d'Oliveira, José Joaquim; Vocabulário elementar da
> língua geral; in Rev. Do Arq. Mun. da cidade de São Paulo; vol.
> XXV (1936)
> 43. Magalhaes, Couto de; O Selvagem (1876)
> 44. Marcgravius, Giorgius; De Lingua Brasiliensium; in Historiae
> rerum naturalium brasiliae (1648)
> 45. Martins, M. de L. de Paula; Contribuicão para o estudo do
> teatro tupi de Anchieta (1941)
> 46. Martins, M. de L. de Paula; A cantiga por o sem ventura; in
> Rev. Do Arq. Mun. da cidade de São Paulo; vol. LXXII (1940)
> 47. Masucci, Oberdan; Dicionário tupi e vice-versa (1979)
> 48. Mello, Octaviano; Dicionario tupi portugues e vice-versa, com
> dicionario de rimas tupis (1967)
> 49. Michaele, Faris Antonio S.; Manual de conversação de lingua
> tupi (1951)
> 50. Montanus, Arnoldus; De nieuwe en onbekende wereld (1671)
> 51. Navarro, Eduardo; Método moderno de tupi antigo (1998)
> 52. Parissier, J B., Essai de lingua geral ou tupi amazonie
> (1903)
> 53. Pennafort, Raymundo Ulysses de; Curupira caamunuçára irúmo;
> in Brazil pre-historico (1900)
> 54. Pereira Junior, Jose Anthero; Etnografia e lingua
> tupi-guarani. (1948)
> 55. Platzmann, Julius; Das anonyme wörterbuch tupi-deutsch
> deutsch-tupi (1901)
> 56. Pontes, Salvador Pires; Nocoes da gramatica tupi (1981)
> 57. SIL; O evangelho de Nosso Senhor Jesus Cristo (1967)
> 58. Staden, Hans; Hans Staden, suas viagens e captiveiro entre os
> selvagens do Brazil (1900)
> 59. Stradelli, Ermano; Vocabulários da língua geral
> português-nheengatu; in in Rev. Instituto Histórico e Geográfico
> Brasileiro, vol. 158 (1929)
> 60. Sympson, Pedro Luiz; Grammatica da lingua brasileira,
> bralisica, tupi ou nheengatu (1926)
> 61. Tastevin, Constant F.; Grammatica da lingua tupy (1923)
> 62. Tibiriçá, Luiz Caldas; Dicionário tupi-português (1984)
> 63. Thevet, Andre; Cosmographie universelle d'andre thevet
> cosmographe du roy (1575)
> 64. USP, Etnografia e lingua tupi-guarani - poesias (sec xvi)
> (1945)
> 65. Valente, Christovão, Poemas brasílicos (1941)
> 66. Valente, Jose Augusto Vaz; Lingua tupi-nhehengatu (1972)
> 67. Velloso, Jose Mariano da Conceicao; Diccionario portuguez, e
> brasiliano, obra necessaria aos ministros do altar, que
> emprehenderem a conversao (1795)
> 68. Viégas, Ahmés Pinto; Vocabulário português-tupie
> tupi-português (1971)
> 69. von Martius, Karl Friedrich Philipp; Glossaria linguarum
> brasiliensium (1863)
> 70. Vocabulario na lingua brasilica; manuscrito portugues-tupi do
> seculo xvii. (1938.)
> 71. Fac-símile do Vocabulário português-brasílico (1951)
>
> These references are held by the libraries of several departments
> of the
> university, and can be searched at
> http://DEDALUS.usp.br:4500/ALEPH/eng/USP/USP/DEDALUS/start
>
> Many of the references above are diccionaries and grammars, that
> have also lots of
> text and sentences in Tupi.
>
> Some references have prose or poetry in the language (refs. 1, 2,
> 4, 5, 7, 8,
> 18, 19, 22, 23, 24, 28, 31, 37, 38, 43, 44, 46, 50, 53, 57, 62,
> 63, 64, 68, 71).
>
> There is one bibliography (ref. 9) and two antologies (refs. 31
> and 43).
> The bibliography lists 585 references, from which around 50% are
> in Guarani,
> and 30% are phylological studies of Tupi. The remaining 20% are
> works
> in or partially in Tupi.
> addinfo = The Tupi language has several dialects
> (COCAMA-COCAMILLA; NHENGATU; OMAGUA;
> POTIGUÁRA; TUPINAMBÁ; TUPINIKIN). It mainly was spoken in the
> Brazilian shore, by
> the sixteenth to eighteenth century. The references given are for
> the brazilian
> dialects of tupi (NHENGATU; POTIGUÁRA; TUPINAMBÁ; TUPINIKIN), of
> which Tupinambá is
> the most well documented. Presently only Nheengatu is spoken
> (5000 speakers),
> in Brazilian Amazon, and Cocama-cocamilla in Peruvian Amazon
> (18000 speakers).
> The other dialects are extinct.
>
> Tupinambá is also known as Língua Brasílica (Brazilian Language),
> Língua Geral (General Language) and Tupi Antigo (Old Tupi). It
> was
> the most used language in Brazil till the eighteenth century,
> being
> used by around 2/3 of the inhabitants in the portuguese towns in
> Brazil.
>
> There are some confusions with Tupi and Guarani, mainly because
> the word Tupi
> is also used for the language family from where they were
> descendent, but
> they are different languages.
> request_addition = ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2
> 2_code_suggestion = tp
> 3_code_suggestion = tup
> submit_name = Helio Jaques Rocha-Pinto
> submit_email = [log in to unmask]
> submit_status = Language Researcher; working on Tupi diccionaries
>
>
>
>
> Clarification (posted to the ISO JAC list on 1 Aug. 2001:
>
> >  Dear Mr. Peter Constable
>  >
>  > Thank you for sending a copy to me of your message to Mr.
> Galinski.
>  > I have requested an ISO code for Tupi but, as I know, this
> term is
>  > not unambigously defined.
>  >
>  > By Tupi I mean the family group which has the languages
> Tupinamba,
>  > Tupinikin, Potiguara, Nheengatu, Omagua and Cocama-Cocamilla,
> which
>  > in the Ethnologue are listed under the generic name Tupi. The
> name
>  > Tupi is also used for the larger language family which
> encompass
>  > around 70 languages, as well as for Nheengatu (called modern
> tupi)
>  > and Tupinamba (called old tupi).
>  >
>  > The 71 documents I have found in Universidade de Sao Paulo,
> submitted
>  > to appreciation of the JAC are in Tupinamba, Tupinikin and
>  > Nheengatu, in the approximate proportion 6:1:4.
>  >
>  > I have probably chosen the wrong name for the language, in my
> request.
>  > Maybe I should have requested a code for "tupic languages",
> from
>  > which Tupinamba is the most well document, and not for "tupi"
>  > to avoid confusion with the name of the language family.
>  >
>  > I appreciate any comments and suggestions you may have on how
> to
>  > proceed with the request.
>  >
>  > Yours sincerely
>  >
>  > Helio


--
John Clews,
Keytempo Limited (Information Management),
8 Avenue Rd, Harrogate, HG2 7PG
Email: [log in to unmask]
tel: +44 1423 888 432;

Committee Chair of  ISO/TC46/SC2: Conversion of Written Languages;
Committee Member of ISO/IEC/JTC1/SC22/WG20: Internationalization;
Committee Member of ISO/TC37: Terminology

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