LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


[email protected]


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  June 2004

ARSCLIST June 2004

Subject:

FW: [ARSCLIST] [78-l] Article on actual recording speeds of 78rpm discs -- comments? [2]

From:

"Copeland, Peter" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:09:48 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (181 lines)

-----Original Message-----
From: Copeland, Peter
Sent: 11 June 2004 14:48
To: [log in to unmask] Rochester. Edu ([log in to unmask])
Subject: RE: [ARSCLIST] [78-l] Article on actual recording speeds of 78rpm
discs -- comments? [2]

Dear All,
    One minor comment, one major one.
(1) The "standard" speed for 78s on this side of the pond (British Standard
1928 : 1955) was 77.92. This was defined by the different mains frequency in
the Old World - 50Hz instead of 60Hz - and synchronous cutting-lathes were
supplied to the appropriate sides of the Atlantic to ensure that the correct
speeds would be used for disc mastering.
(2) What is the precise function of the Project Gramophone operation? If
there is a preservation element, it may be necessary to select a standard in
terms of bits per revolution, so different copies may be accurately
synchronised. It would then be possible to use a digital equivalent of the
"Packburn" first stage, choosing the quieter of the two copies from one
microsecond to the next, and also working in different frequency bands.
There would be little point in using 96kHz/24-bit sampling otherwise.
    Even for web listening (with lossy digital compression), the more the
background noise is reduced, the better it will sound at the listener's
ears.
Peter Copeland
former Conservation Manager
British Library Sound Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Noring [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 24 May 2004 00:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] [78-l] Article on actual recording speeds of 78rpm
discs -- comments?

Norman wrote:
> Jon Noring wrote:

>> I found the following article which discussed the recording speeds
>> for "78rpm" records:
>>
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HEO/is_13_26/ai_94718185
>>
>> How accurate is this article? After the mid-20s, did recording
>> engineers religiously record at 78.26 rpm as the article implies, or
>> was there still a lot of small variation in recording speed?

> It is well-intentioned, but rather simplistic, as David Lennick has
> already commented.
>
> [snip]
>
> These records invariably include a piano, and so the only assumption
> we have to make is that it was tuned - more or less - to standard
> pitch for the above-mentioned countries, i.e. A=440Hz for the U.S.A.
> and A=439Hz for Britain. That relatively small difference is not a
> significant problem. (Much useful discussion on Standard Pitch was
> done on this list a couple of years ago, and we concluded that A=440
> became first established in the U.S.A.; it was adopted elsewhere in
> much of the western world in the later 1930s).
>
> [snip]
>
> Nevertheless, there remains the problem of pitch change during the
> cutting of a record. In the type of record mentioned in this posting,
> any change in pitch is usually downwards. This because a cutting
> turntable with insufficent torque will speed up as the drag from the
> cutter decreases as the groove velocity falls towards the centre of
> the disc. On replay, naturally, the pitch will drop.

Interesting. Has anyone done an analysis (probably based on pitch
sampling throughout a recording) if the pitch drop due to cutter drag
is essentially linear with respect to time (or some such predictable
curve)? Also, is this actually the norm to expect (variable recording
speed due to cutter drag) rather than the exception? What recording
companies used equipment which guaranteed, within practical
considerations, constant cutting lathe turntable speed?

Obviously, if one is to correct this pitch drop effect, it has to be
done during digital restoration since the playback (for producing
the raw transfer) must be kept rock-solid constant in speed.

> Some time ago Michael Kieffer generously sent me 78.26 rpm transfers
> of master pressings of the Louis Armstrong's Hot Five 1926 versions of
> 'Cornet Chop Suey' and 'Georgia Grind'. This means I can now compare
> all 6 titles from that session from masters, and complete an exercise
> I started some time ago. The preliminary results of this indicated
> that the masters (nominally intended to be 80 rpm, Okeh's 'standard'
> at the time) were actually cut starting at ~81.6 and ending at ~82.4
> rpm. As soon as I get time, I'll complete the rewrite of this.
>
> In short, if you want to be absolutely thorough on this topic, you
> need to check & if neccessary correct the pitch of each session.
> Fortunately, the lathe *usually* behaves the same throughout a
> session... but don't count on it!
>
> A year or so ago I wrote a couple of rather rambling articles on
> pitching American & British Jazz & Dance 78s, which can be seen on my
> website at:
>
> www.normanfield.fsnet.co.uk/pitch.htm

The original reason I brought up this article is for the purposes of
Project Gramophone discussion and planning.

As currently envisioned, Project Gramophone will concentrate on
producing very high quality *raw digital transfers* of original source
78 rpm discs (and other formats, too, but the primary source material
will be 78 rpm discs).

The digital raw transfers (at 96k/24bit resolution) will then be
archived and made available online in "library fashion", such as at
the Internet Archive, for use by those who wish to digitally restore
them.

Of course, it is also envisioned, as allowed by law and proper
arrangements with various rights holders (dependent upon country), to
create listenable, online versions (probably streaming audio) of these
raw transfers. Since most of the transfers probably will not, right
away, be properly digitally restored, some automated (and rudimentary)
restoration will be done on them to produce at least listenable
versions for the general public -- they will obviously not be pitch
corrected unless there are clever ways to autodetect the necessary
pitch adjustment (and get it right most of the time.)

It is clear that because of the large numbers of sides needing to be
raw transferred, there is no time to spend on adjusting the exact
speed of the original recording -- this requires proper pitching and
the like (not to mention the variable speed of recording due to cutter
drag as Norman mentions above!) Fortunately, changing the pitch during
the digital restoration step is trivially easy to do by simple
resampling (and the high digital resolution 96k/24bit assures this can
be done with effectively zero impact -- even variable cutting lathe
speed can be digitally corrected so long as we can determine the speed
variation curve.)

However, this still begs the question as to what speed(s) Project
Gramophone should standardize upon for the raw transfer stage since
it is important for several reasons to settle upon a standard speed
or set of speeds and religiously keep to them (the exact speed of raw
transfer will, of course, be recorded in the metadata associated with
the raw transfer, and will be available to the restoration engineer.)

For example, should PrGram simply set 78.26 rpm for all transfers of
78 rpm discs, regardless of era and recording company? Or should we
settle upon a set of speeds? One advantage of establishing one and
only one speed is that it is easier to calibrate and keep calibrated
the turntables. This is especially important when we set up multiple
transfer "stations" run by different groups. We have to keep things
as simple as possible, yet assure strict conformity to the same set
of standards so we get consistent results across the board, and those
who later digitally restore the raw transfers know the transfer speed,
the equalization, etc., etc.

Thoughts?

Jon Noring


**************************************************************************

Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk

Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book.
www.bl.uk/adoptabook

*************************************************************************

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the
[log in to unmask] : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or
copied without the sender's consent.

The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the
author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The
British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the
author.

*************************************************************************

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager