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ISOJAC  October 2004

ISOJAC October 2004

Subject:

Réf. : Re: Réf. : Norman French [Re: Item rejected by ISO 639 JAC]

From:

Anila Angjeli <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:04:06 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)





That is the question: either we distinguish between "Anglo-norman" of the
Channel islands and continental "Norman" and state this distinction clearly
in the standard (but how), or we  design a unique "collective" code for the
Norman as a roman language comprising the Norman dialect spoken in the
continental Normandy, the Anglo-Norman dialects of the Channel Islands and
the historic form of the Norman such as Law French.
It's worth remembering that the isogloss "ligne Joret", which separates the
northern and southern dialects of the Norman language, goes from West to
East through the continental Normandy, bringing together in the same
geolinguistic area the continental variety called "Norman" and the dialects
spoken in the Channel islands.
I just wanted to stress that besides the common assumption that  the name
"Anglo-Norman" designates the dialects spoken in the Channe Islands, as
soon as the appelations "French-Norman" or simply "Norman" are introduced,
the geolinguistic area of application of such appelations gets confused and
the continental variant is spontaneously implied.

Extracts from different sites about Norman :
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Norman%20language
The Norman language is one of the oil-languages. The name “ Norman-French ”
is sometimes used to describe not only the modern Norman language, but also
the administrative languages of “ Anglo-Norman ” and “ Law French ” used in
England. The Norman nobility spoke a langue d'oïl, a form of Old French
called Norman. This became the official language of England and later
developed the unique insular dialect now known as the Anglo-Norman
language. Norman is spoken in mainland Normandy where it has no official
status, but is classed as a regional language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_language
Three different standardised spellings are used: continental Norman,
Jèrriais, and Dgèrnésiais. These represent the different developments and
particular literary histories of the varieties of Norman.

http://july.fixedreference.org/fr/20040727/wikipedia/Normand
Le normand est une langue romane
On parle des variétés de la langue normande:
en France : en Normandie continentale
aux îles anglo-normandes : à Jersey,      à Guernesay, à Sercq
La langue normande d’Aurignya disparu pendant le XXe siècle.
On distingue le normand parlé au-dessus de la ligne Joret et au-dessous de
cette isoglosse. Par exempl'ye, le mot sac se traduit en pouque au nord et
en pouche au sud. L'orthographe normalisée propose un signe qu afin de
représenter les prononciations régionales /k/ et/tch/ - néanmoins les îles,
étant au nord de la ligne Joret, ont gardé le tch orthographique: à
comparer, le mot normand venu du canem (chien) en latin s'écrit quyin selon
l'orthographe continentale et tchian selon l'orthographe insulaire.
Les langues insulaires sont reconnues officiellement par les gouvernements
des îles, sans être langues officielles. L’enseignement facultatif du
jèrriais (normand jersiais) se fait dans les écoles de Jersey, et le
guernesiais est présent dans quelques écoles de Guernesey.
Dans la Grand' tèrre, le normand est reconnu en tant que langue de France
parmi les langues d’oil.
Les langues jersiaise et guernesiaise sont reconnues en tant que langues
régionales des Îles Britanniques dans le cadre du Conseil
Britannique-Irlandais (avec l’irlandais, le gallois, l’écossais, le scots,
le scots d’Ulster, le mannois, et le cornique).
Le normand continental est pour ainsi dire plus fort dans le Cotentin et
dans le Pays de Caux qu’ailleurs sur le continent.
Il existe trois orthographes standardisées: continental, jersiais,
guernesiais.
On retrouve des éléments de la langue normande dans la toponymie normande.

http://noticesrameau.bnf.fr/ (RAMEAU - Bibliothèque nationale de France
Subject Headings )
Anglo-normand (dialecte)
Sous cette vedette se trouve le dialecte de langue d'oil parlé après 1066
des deux côtés de la Manche. Cette vedette s'applique aussi à la langue
mixte employée en Angleterre du 12ème au 14ème siècle


Anila Angjeli
Bibliothèque nationale de France




John Clews <[log in to unmask]>@loc.gov> le 03/10/2004 07:06:22

Veuillez répondre à ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Envoyé par :      ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>


Pour : [log in to unmask]
cc :
Objet :     Re: Réf. : Norman French [Re: Item rejected by ISO 639 JAC]


Clarity requested from Anila Angjeli.

Anila Angjeli of the Bibliothèque nationale de France seems to imply that
"... Norman" is a single language.

I think that Milicent Wewerka is correct (see below), and that Norman (in
France) and Anglo-Norman (outside France) are two separate languages.

After all, the separation occurred nearly 1000 years ago ...

John Clews

Anila Angjeli wrote:

> Ok for a separate entry in ISO 639-2.
> As to the name both appelations "Anglo-Norman" (in French
"Anglo-normand")
> and French-Norman (in French "Franco-normand") may be encountered in the
> documents. Depending on the context, "Norman" is used in some cases to
> designate only the Norman dialect used in Normandy and in other cases it
> encompasses the dialects spoken in the isles as well. So "French-Norman"
> may be a good compromise, provided that the other forms be added as
> variants to the name.
>
> Regards
> Anila Angjeli
> Bibliothèque nationale de France


Milicent K Wewerka wrote:
27/09/2004 15:29:04

> I think it would be useful to have a separate entry in ISO 639-2 for
> Norman French.  I don't think it should be called "Anglo-Norman" since
> that term would exclude varieties still used in Normandy, although
> perhaps that would be valid as an additional name.
>
> Milicent Wewerka
>  Library of Congress

 --

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