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ISOJAC  August 2005

ISOJAC August 2005

Subject:

[Fwd: New ISO 639 proposals: Western Frisian, Northern Frisian, Eastern Frisian -- Discussion]

From:

John Clews <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:00:34 +0100

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (257 lines) , untitled-2 (220 lines)

Here are my thoughts on Frisian languages used in Germany.

I support the inclusion of the German Frisian languages in ISO 639-2.

I do not support their inclusion in ISO 639-1.

The crucial phrase in Håvard 's email is:

- 639-3 includes "Frisian" (fry) as a macro language, and Western Frisian
(fri), Northern Frisian (frr), and Eastern Frisian (frs). (Also "Old
Frisian" (ofs) is included, but that has no impact on the current issue.)

Discussion on how to deal with fry/fri issue would also be useful. Most
fry entries used in libraries will almost certainly represent Frisian as
used in the Netherlands, which I take to be Western Frisian (fri).

I note that serious interest in Frisian languages in Germany, and
promotion of Frisian languages in Germany, is of relatively recent origin

Northern Frisian, and Eastern Frisian are legitimate.

Sater Frisian may also be, but it needs to be clarified how ALL the
Frisian languages relate to each other, and wether Sater Frisian is merely
another name for one of these languages - and which one.

There is a need for more information, and clearer information, before JAC
approaval should be given.

John Clews




---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: New ISO 639 proposals: Western Frisian, Northern Frisian, Eastern
Frisian -- Discussion
From:    Håvard  Hjulstad <[log in to unmask]>
Date:    Wed, August 17, 2005 10:30 am
To:      [log in to unmask]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear JAC members,

We have received proposals to include three Frisian languages in 639-2:
Western Frisian, Northern Frisian, and Eastern Frisian. Please see the
submitted proposals at the bottom of this message.

I think that it makes sense to discuss all three proposals in one email
thread. Balloting will be done on an individual basis, however.

[I am copying this message also to the submitter, Mr Peter Hans van den
Muijzenberg, asking him in particular to correct names below where the
character set has been corrupted through various email transmissions.]

Current status is as follows:

- "Frisian" is included in 639-1 (identifier "fy") and 639-2 (identifier
"fry"). In the process to finalize 639-1 there were proposals on the table
to include "North Frisian" and "Sater Frisian, East Frisian", both of
which were rejected at that time for the alpha-2 code.

- 639-3 includes "Frisian" (fry) as a macro language, and Western Frisian
(fri), Northern Frisian (frr), and Eastern Frisian (frs). (Also "Old
Frisian" (ofs) is included, but that has no impact on the current issue.)

- Linguasphere has "FRYSK+FRASCH" as 52-ACA, which (in addition to Old
Frisian) is subdivided into "Frysk-W." (52-ACA-b), "Frysk-E." (52-ACA-c),
"Frysk-NW." (52-ACA-d), and "Frasch" (52-ACA-e). It looks as if the two
first map well into Western Frisian and Eastern Frisian respectively,
while the two last items both seem to be covered by Northern Frisian.

The proposer suggests that the alpha-3 identifiers should be different
from those in Ethnologue (and 639-3) for Western Frisian and Northern
Frisian. For Western Frisian this would probably not be possible (since it
would actually be a "swap" of fri/fry between Frisian and Western Frisian.
For Northern Frisian, however, as the proposer points out, the desired
identifier "frn" is in fact available. However, unless JAC members argue
to the contrary, the ballot will include the 639-3 identifiers.

DISCUSSION please (until 2005-09-09).

Best regards,
Håvard


**********************************************
This data was submitted on: Friday, May 27, 2005 at 14:16:50

lang_in_eng = Western Frisian

lang_in_fre = frison occidental

ref_where_found_1 = What is supposed to go here?

lang_in_vern = Frysk

ref_where_found_2 = What is supposed to go here?

trans_lit
evidence = Tresoar, the institution that functions as a depot for all
Frisian documents published in The Netherlands, informs me they have at
least a few thousand books and articles in the Western Frisian language.

TRESOAR
Frysk Histoarysk en Letterkundich Sintrum P O Box 2637
8901 AC LEEUWARDEN
The Netherlands
phone +31 58 789  789
fax: +31 58 789  777
email: [log in to unmask]
website: http://www.tresoar.nl <http://www.tresoar.nl/>

addinfo = Western Frisian has approximately 450.000 speakers in the Dutch
province of Frysl=E2n, and some 3.000 in an adjacent part of Groningen. By
national law, the language has equal status with Dutch within the province
of Frysl=E2n, and is recognized as a minority language according to the
European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

request_addition = ISO 639-2 only

2_code_suggestion
3_code_suggestion = FRY

submit_name = Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg

submit_email = [log in to unmask]

submit_status = Speaker of Western Frisian, trying to separate the
languages now collected under fy/fry. (Accompanying this are requests for
Eastern and Northern Frisian).

(The SIL-code for Western Frisian is "FRI", but this does not match the
ingenious name "Frysk".

* The majority of the current uses of FRY will actually refer to Western
Frisian anyway;

* Seperate codes for Eastern and Western Frisian are also being requested;

* Most people currently appear to be unaware that FRY is not supposed to
beWestern Frisian only.

In all it seems to make sense to specify that FRY indeed is the code for
Western Frisian only, introducing FRI (Fri-sian) as the macro language
code, if there's still a purpose for that. The only draw-back is that the
ISO639-1 code (FY) no longer would be an abbrevations of the ISO639-2 code
(FRI).)


**********************************************
This data was submitted on: Friday, May 27, 2005 at 14:17:11

lang_in_eng = Northern-Frisian

lang_in_fre = Le frison septentrional

ref_where_found_1 = What is supposed to go here?

lang_in_vern = Friisk, Frasch

ref_where_found_2 = What is supposed to go here?

trans_lit
evidence = The Nordfriisk Instituut estimates it has more than 300
documents in Northern-Frisian.

Nordfriisk Instituut
S=FCderstr. 30;
25821 Br=E4ist/Bredstedt, NF
Germany
Tel: +49 4671 6012-0
Fax: +49 4671 13 33
Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Internet: www.nordfriiskinstituut.de
<outbind://14/www.nordfriiskinstituut.de>

addinfo = Spoken in the North West of Schleswyk Holstein in Germany, both
on the coast of North-Friesland and on the Frisian islands, including
Helgoland. The language has approximately 10.000 speakers, and is
recognized by the German Federal government as a regional language
according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

request_addition = ISO 639-2 only

2_code_suggestion
3_code_suggestion = FRN

submit_name = Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg

submit_email = [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>

submit_status = Speaker of Western Frisian, trying to separate the
languages now collected under fy/fry. (Accompanying this are requests for
Western= and Eastern Frisian).

(The SIL-code is FRR, but this does not match the name of the language
particularly in nay way. It would appear to be chosen because it was
"free". As a SIL-code, FRN was already taken for French, but for ISO this
is not the case. The Nordfriisk Instituut informed me they would prefer
this code over FRR.)


**********************************************

This data was submitted on: Friday, May 27, 2005 at 14:17:03

lang_in_eng = Eastern Frisian

lang_in_fre = frison oriental

ref_where_found_1 = What is supposed to go here?

lang_in_vern = Seeltersk Fr=E4isk, Seeltersk, Fr=E4isk

ref_where_found_2 = What is supposed to go here?

trans_lit
evidence = I've been informed that the library of the University of
Oldenburg has at the least 115 documents in the Eastern Frisian language.

University Library of the Carl von Ossietzky-University in Oldenburg
Postfach 2541 26015 Oldenburg
Germany
Tel.: +49 441/798-2023
Fax: +49 441/798-4040
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
website: http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/ <http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/>

addinfo = Eastern Frisian, which at one time was used from the western
border of Groningen in The Netherlands to the river Wezer in Germany, is
now limited to the dialect of Saterland, west of Oldenburg in Lower
Saxony, Germany. The language has some 2.000 speakers. For the last
decennia, the language was shared between an aging generation, but
recently younger generations have begun taking up the language. In 2000
BIS-Verlag published the New Testament in Eastern Frisian. The language is
recognized by the German Federal government as a regional language
according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

request_addition = ISO 639-2 only

2_code_suggestion
3_code_suggestion = FRS

submit_name = Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg

submit_email = [log in to unmask]

submit_status = Speaker of Western Frisian, trying to separate the
languages now collected under fy/fry. (Accompanying this are requests for
Western and Northern Frisian).

(FRS is the SIL-code. It both fits with "FR=E4iSk" and with "FR=E4isk,
Seeltersk".)



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