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ISOJAC  December 2005

ISOJAC December 2005

Subject:

Re: New ISO 639 proposal - Resian - Discussion

From:

Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:59:23 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (170 lines)

Re stability: among the alternatives Joan mentioned, we only ensure a stability problem if we re-define the denotation of an existing ID more narrowly to exclude something that it previously included. The current entry for "Slovenian" should remain with its current meaning, including Resian (and likewise for the general case). 

If we decided that Resian is indeed to be considered a distinct language, we can code it in 639-3 -- status as a distinct individual language is the necessary criterion there. We can then evaluate the pros/cons of also adding it to 639-2 (provided it meets the necessary criteria re 50 docs). Within that latter question, we might want to discuss the relationship between ISO 639-2 and MARC. At present, my impression is that the two are distinct, and that inclusion in 639-2 need not imply that it be available for use in MARC. But I recognize that libraries may be operating under a different assumption regarding the relationship.


Peter Constable



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Rebecca S. Guenther
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: New ISO 639 proposal - Resian - Discussion
> 
> A long time ago, when the Library of Congress became involved in the
> development of a 3-character code list for languages (based on the
> existing one we used) we emphasized the need for stability given the
> investment we have in our databases, the millions of records and
> users.  That has not changed. This is not just a theoretical exercise but
> there are practical considerations.  We cannot start redefining existing
> codes once new ones are added because of the impact on our systems and
> users.  Frankly, we will have to pull out of the ISO work if there are
> major disruptions.
> 
> At our last meeting I recall our discussion (and Havard's suggestion) that
> we be fairly conservative about what languages we add to ISO 639-2. We
> were expecting that after its approval and some implementation that many
> of the groups asking for language codes in ISO 639-2 would get them in
> 639-3, so there wouldn't be a need for 639-2 to grow too much.
> 
> We may indeed need to finetune the rules-- but if so my inclination would
> be to make the criteria more difficult rather than easier since there is
> an additional code list (part 3). What did you have in mind?
> 
> Rebecca
> 
> 
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Christian Galinski wrote:
> 
> > Obviously we are getting into a grey zone, where dialect communities
> > (even having official status) want to be represented in ISO 639-2.
> > Do we have to finetune the rules of 639-2?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Christian Galinski
> > Infoterm - International Information Centre for Terminology
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> > Of Milicent K Wewerka
> > Sent: Montag, 19. Dezember 2005 16:24
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: New ISO 639 proposal - Resian - Discussion
> >
> >
> > If this is a dialect, does it belong in 639-2 at all?
> >
> > Milicent Wewerka
> > Library of Congress
> >
> > >>> [log in to unmask] 12/07/05 6:39 AM >>>
> > Dear JAC members,
> >
> > We have received a proposal to register an alpha-3 identifier (ISO
> > 639-2) for Resian. Please see the original submission below. Rebecca has
> > already circulated this request and some additional correspondence.
> >
> > Ethnologue and 639-3 includes Resian under Slovenian (slv). Under Italy
> > Slovenian is listed with 100.000 speakers, and the dialects Primorski,
> > Cividale, Resia. It has official status.
> >
> > Linguasphere has "rezijansko" encoded as 53-AAA-fc, next to other
> > Austrian, Italian, and Slovenian variants of 53-AAA-f "Slovensko".
> >
> > The proposal suggests three different alpha-3 identifiers: roz, rez,
> > rsn. All three are currently available.
> >
> > Discussion please (until 2006-01-06).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Håvard
> >
> > ********* ORIGINAL REQUEST **********
> > This data was submitted on: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 at 08:23:48
> >
> > lang_in_eng = Resian, Resianic, Rezijan
> >
> > lang_in_fre = Résien, Resianien
> >
> > ref_where_found_1 = (Resian) Hamp, Eric P. "On the survival of Slovene
> > o-grade deverbal thematics in Resian". Slovene Studies 10/2, 1988. pp.
> > 171-173. (Resianic) Ramovs, Fran. "The Resianic dialect". In: The
> > National Frontier Between Slovenia and Italy: Linguistic and Social
> > Features. Ljubljana 1945. pp. 5-7. (Rezijan) Priestly, Tom M.S.
> > "Baudouin de Courtenay as phonetician: His description of the zasopli
> > vokali in the Rezijan dialect". Prace Filologiczne 34, 1988. pp.
> > 385-391. (Résien) Kopitar, Barth. "Die Slaven im Thale Resia". Erneuerte
> > vaterländische Blätter für den österreichischen Kaiserstaat 9/31, 1816.
> > p. 179. (Resianien) Kopitar, Barth. "Die Slaven im Thale Resia".
> > Erneuerte vaterländische Blätter für den österreichischen Kaiserstaat
> > 9/31, 1816. p. 179.
> >
> > lang_in_vern = rozajanski, rozojanski
> >
> > ref_where_found_2 = Steenwijk, Han. The Slovene dialect of Resia: San
> > Giorgio. Amsterdam-Atlanta, 1992. p. 305.
> >
> > trans_lit =
> >
> > evidence = Biblioteca Comunale di Resia, Via S. Giorgio, 33010 Prato di
> > Resia (30) Biblioteca del Circolo Culturale Resiano "Rozajanski Dum",
> > Via Udine 12, 33010 Stolvizza di Resia (80)
> >
> > addinfo = Resian is originally a Slovene dialect spoken by about 1025
> > persons in the Resia and Uccea valleys (Udine province, Italy), and by
> > an unknown number of emigrants living scattered throughout Europe. In
> > written texts the Latin script is used, but authors avail themselves of
> > widely varying orthographies and sets of characters. The oldest such
> > text dates from the 18th century. A normalised orthography was
> > introduced in 1994. The spoken language shows considerable geographical
> > variation, breaking the Resian speech area up in numerous sub-dialects.
> > In fact, the four best studied and numerically best represented
> > sub-dialects (Bila/San Giorgio, Njiwa/Gniva, Osoane/Oseacco and
> > Solbica/Stolvizza) differ on the phonological, morphological and
> > lexicological levels of linguistic description. Speakers of the
> > sub-dialects are very aware of these differences, at least as far as
> > phonetics and lexicon is concerned. Minor sub-dialects are
> > Varcota/Warkota, Lipavac/Lipovaz, Ravanca/Prato, Crisacis/Krizace,
> > Coritis/Korito, Lischiazze/Liscace and Uccea/Ucja that are less well
> > studied but equally need to bekept distinct in linguistic description.
> > Resian is not officially recognised as a minority language, although it
> > disposes of some of the characterics of full-blown languages. Bilingual
> > place-name signs sport Italian and Resian names, and a written
> > supra-dialectal Resian standard is being taught at primary school and
> > during evening courses. Furthermore, mutual understanding between
> > speakers of Resian and of standard Slovene is very low. In fact, the
> > speakers have to learn each other's language to be able to comunicate.
> > (Very) selected bibliography:
> > Dulicenko, Aleksandr: "Odna iz poslednich popytok sozdanija novogo
> > slavjanskogo literaturnogo jazyka: rez'janskij dialekt v Italii", in:
> > Ucenye zapiski Tartuskogo Gos. universiteta, vol. 579, 1981, pp. 20-45.
> > Steenwijk, Han: "Resian as a minority language", in: Language Death and
> > Language Maintenance: Theoretical, practical and descriptive approaches
> > (Current Issues in Linguistic Theory, vol. CCXL), edited by M. Janse &
> > S. Tol, Amsterdam - Philadelphia: John Benjamins 2003, pp. 215-226.
> > Zuljan, Irena: "Rezija in rezijan?cina sta res enkratni:
> > sociolingvisticni izsledki jezikoslovne skupine mladinskega
> > raziskovalnega tabora Rezija 1989", Primorska srecanja 102, 1989, pp.
> > 913-918. Zybatow, Lew: "Resianisch: eine bedrohte Mikrosprache im Herzen
> > Europas", in: Neue Forschungsarbeiten zur Kontaktlinguistik (Plurilingua
> > 19), edited by W.W. Moelleken & P.J. Weber, Bonn: Dümmler 1997, pp.
> > 505-514. http://purl.org/resianica/ <http://purl.org/resianica/>
> >
> > request_addition = ISO 639-2 only
> >
> > 2_code_suggestion =
> >
> > 3_code_suggestion = roz, rez, rsn
> >
> > submit_name = Han Steenwijk
> >
> > submit_email = [log in to unmask]
> >
> > submit_status = Academic teacher who has learnt the language during
> > field= work.
> >

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