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ISOJAC  May 2006

ISOJAC May 2006

Subject:

Re: New ISO 639 proposal - Germanic Ripuarian Languages - Discussion

From:

Milicent K Wewerka <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 22 May 2006 12:41:54 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (140 lines)

Although I don't vote, I'd suggest that the proposal be rejected.

Milicent Wewerka, Library of Congress

>>> [log in to unmask] 05/21/06 7:53 AM >>>
Concrete question: Does any of the JAC members (or observers) wish to speak in favour of the proposal to encode this item?
 
To JAC voting members: If there hasn't been any clear support within 2006-06-09; do you agree that we "reject" without a vote? (Answer if you disagree.)
 
Hĺvard

________________________________

From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christian Galinski
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: New ISO 639 proposal - Germanic Ripuarian Languages - Discussion


according to http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/francique <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/francique>
 
(1) Le francique <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francique> ripuaire est un dialecte germanique. Rattaché au groupe de dialectes moyen-allemands, son aire d'influence s'étend essentiellement dans le Land <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A4nder_allemands> de Rhénanie-du-Nord-Westphalie <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%A9nanie-du-Nord-Westphalie> , avec quelques influences mineures sur le Nord du Land de Rhénanie-Palatinat <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%A9nanie-Palatinat> , la zone d'Eupen <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupen> en Belgique <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgique> , et certaines communes limitrophes aux Pays-Bas <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pays-Bas> .

* au nord, la limite recouvre la ligne de Benrath <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_de_Benrath> , qui marque la limite traditionnelle entre les parlers bas-allemands <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas-allemand> proprement dits et leurs subdivisions moyenne-allemandes ;
* au sud, les limites épousent approximativement la frontičre entre les Länder allemands <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A4nder_allemands> de Rhénanie-du-Nord-Westphalie <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%A9nanie-du-Nord-Westphalie> et Rhénanie-Palatinat <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%A9nanie-Palatinat> ;
* ŕ l'ouest, la limite se trouve entre Eupen <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupen> et Aix-la-Chapelle <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aix-la-Chapelle> ;
* ŕ l'est, la limite est estimée aux environs de la ville de Siegen <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegen> .

(2) Un certain nombre de compétences de la Région wallonne sont transférées ŕ la Communauté germanophone ŕ partir du 1er janvier <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1er_janvier> 2005 <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005> , ŕ savoir :

* les fabriques d'église
* la tutelle sur les communes et les zones de police de la Communauté germanophone
* le financement des communes (le fonds des communes et les travaux subsidiés)
* les funérailles et sépultures.

So it seems as if the official language of the germanophone part of Belgium is German, while a dialect is spoken by many or most of the population - like in most parts of Germany.
 
"There are several dozen (more than 100) local dialects, spoken in the cities of Aachen, Bonn, Cologne, Düsseldorf in German Rhineland, and in adjacent areas in Belgium and Netherland, which together make up the Germanic Ripuarian group of languages"
 
But is it not rather a group of dialects than a group of languages? Is there evidence for the official minority language status of Valkenraad Ripwarian and Büllingsch Ripwarian?

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-----Original Message-----
From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hĺvard Hjulstad
Sent: Dienstag, 16. Mai 2006 09:53
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: New ISO 639 proposal - Germanic Ripuarian Languages - Discussion



Dear JAC members,

We have received the proposal below. Discussion please (until 2006-06-09).

As the proposer indicates, the item is "macro-item" which includes Kölsch (which has been discussed and rejected by the JAC). Most linguists would refer to Ripuarian as a group of German dialects. Note the statements "The Ripuarian language of municipality Valkenraad is an official minority language in Belgium. The Ripwarian Language Büllingsch is an oficial minority language in Belgium".

The proposer correctly indicates that the item is encoded 52-ACB-da in Linguasphere, which includes Kölsch as two sub-items.

Do we need to ballot this item, or can we reject it based on the discussion/decision relating to Kölsch?

Regards,
Hĺvard


********** Original submission: ***********

This data was submitted on: Thursday, April 27, 2006 at 17:41:08

lang_in_eng = Germanic Ripuarian Languages
lang_in_fre = francique ripuaire
ref_where_found_1 = http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/francique <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/francique> ripuaire (if this is meant by "reference")
lang_in_vern = Ripoarish, Ripuarisch, Ripoarisch, Ripoarisj, Ripoarig, Ripuarig, Ripwarisch, Ripoar&#279;sch
ref_where_found_2 = -
trans_lit = -
evidence = See Request for ksh (Kölsch) of 2005-Oct-11.
Since the Ripuarian is a group of languages including Kölsch, evidence of Kölsch literature, etc. also refers to them. I have conducted no further research on other Ripuarian varieties, though there certainly are books in and research publications on them.

Here is the Kölsch evidence:

1) some 500+ books in Kölsch language can be found in the library of:
Akademie för uns kölsche Sproch
http://www.koelsch-akademie.de/ <http://www.koelsch-akademie.de/>
Phone: ++49 (221) 226-5791
Fax: ++49 (221) 226-5799
Director: Jupp Schmidt
e-mail: <[log in to unmask]>
Librarian: Ingeborg Nitt
Phone: ++49 (221) 226-5792
e-mail: <[log in to unmask]>

2) The 'German national library' is the german equivalent of the 'Library of Congress'. Since they are collecting (by law) a copy of each book published in Germany, also there should be the same 500+ Book Titles, plus probably more:

Die Deutsche Bibliothek
Adickesallee 1
60322 Frankfurt am Main
Deutschland
Phone + 49-69-1525-0
Fax + 49-69-1525-1010
http://www.ddb.de/ <http://www.ddb.de/>
Inquiries regarding printed books to:
<[log in to unmask]>
<[log in to unmask]>
Inquiries regarding published music to:
<[log in to unmask]>
addinfo = There are several dozen (more than 100) local dialects, spoken in the cities of Aachen, Bonn, Cologne, Düsseldorf in German Rhineland, and in adjacent areas in Belgium and Netherland, which together make up the Germanic Ripuarian group of languages.

The Ripuarian language of municipality Valkenraad is an official minority language in Belgium. The Ripwarian Language Büllingsch is an oficial minority language in Belgium.

There is about a million native speakers (estimate).

The well known Kölsch language accounts for about 1/3 to 1/4 of the overall Ripuarian speakers.

The linguasphere register lists:
52-ACB-da Ripwarisch
plus 5 of its subdivisions including Kölsch and Büllingsch.


As to the alpha-3 code:
We do not suggest "rip" since its resemblance of R.I.P. very often found in our graveyards is unlikely to be received well in the community. We cannot suggest "frp" (franconian ripuarian, as used in older literature and in france) since it is already used. Thus grp (germanic ripuarian) seems to be an acceptable choice. The word "germanic" is more likely to be recognized by average readers worldwide then "franconian". Since the french term is "francique", using them together would be conveying more information.

request_addition = ISO 639-2 only
2_code_suggestion = ---
3_code_suggestion = grp
submit_name = Purodha Blissenbach
submit_email = [log in to unmask]
submit_status = Native speaker, author, website publisher, admin of an Encyclopedia in Ripurian languages, starting at http://ksh.wikipedia.org/ <http://ksh.wikipedia.org/>

e-mail: <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]>

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