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EDUCAT Home

EDUCAT  July 2006

EDUCAT July 2006

Subject:

Re: Access to Desktop and ClasWeb for students

From:

Heidi Hoerman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:11:31 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

I am not asking you as an individual to offer me cheaper access.  I did not compare the issue of local versus international prices.  I simply suggest that the use I am talking of is different in amount, just as is the use by different sizes of libraries that pay different prices for different amounts of year-round simultaneous use.  
   
  I am asking to have my students pay for their level of use rather than to abuse a free trial and the structure of an existing license.  I am asking to have a large number of simultaneous users, ones who would use the system for only a short period of time, a number of users that varies from zero to one-hundred in any given semester, pay for that use.
   
  I have yet to hear an answer that indicates you understand what I am asking.  I know other library schools have worked around this.  I have worked around this.  I will continue to work around this.  But the solutions you suggest are not one-size-fits-all nor are all schools the same.
   
  I know Judith didn't mean to forward her answer and yes, as an email user since the early 80s I have done it a million or so times myself.
   
  I guess, for now, I give up again.
   
  Too bad.  Not too bad for me.  I can get in via the library's subscription.  Too bad for my students and too bad for CDS who could add to their 110% by having my students buy desktop instead of the print AACR2.  Too bad for CDS who would have students come out with their degrees and a hankering to buy Desktop and ClasWeb in their libraries.  For now, these tools are mythological beasts to them that seem awfully expensive.
   
  Heidi
   
  

Bruce C Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
  Heidi:

I'm sure that Judy didn't mean to post her response to the list. Such things have happened to all of us. I understand your reaction to her response but I'm sure it wasn't intentionally distributed and certainly wasn't meant to impune your argument.

I understand your position and am sympathetic to it, which of course doesn't help resolve your concern. The situation in which CDS operates has all of the disadvantages of being a federal government operation with very few of the advantages of being self-funding. We are legally required to recover 110% of the product's costs on all sales, and federal law precludes differential pricing. (In your previous message you noted the difference between North American and international prices. This is caused by the difference in shipping costs of physical items which is included in the quoted product price.)

The 30-day trial is of course intended to allow potential paying subscribers to evaluate the product and come to conclusions about its suitability in their workplace. I have no doubts that some use the trial for the purpose that you describe below and we make no attempt to evaluate how the 30-day trials are being used.

In terms of who is accepting the product's terms and conditions, again we make no attempt to confirm that the person accepting the terms is indeed legally authorized to do so. As we see it, that is an issue on the individual's institution's end of the equation.

The approach I suggested (tacking a library school's additional license onto the university's main subscription) has worked very well with dozens of library schools. I don't doubt that it may not work equally well for all institutions. I can not, however, offer you a free or reduced cost subscription without exposing myself to criminal prosecution. 

I regret that my previous message did not adequately explain the legal situation within which we must operate. Please let me know if I can provide you with additional information.

Best wishes,

Bruce


Bruce Chr. Johnson
President, Association for Library Collections & Technical Services (ALCTS) 
a division of the American Library Association 

and 

Acting Assistant Chief
Cataloging Distribution Service
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4911 USA

202-707-1652 (voice) [log in to unmask]
202-707-3959 (fax)

>>> Heidi Hoerman 07/10/06 2:32 PM >>>
"Boy, what a wonderful reply, congrats. --judy"

I disagree. It was a terrible and somewhat infuriating answer. And I note that neither of you replied to my response to it.

This is ridiculous. You are annoying and making life difficult for the very people who are your future -- new librarians. An answer like, "we don't have the staff to handle that many subscribers" might be believable. The knee-jerk "it's illegal, go away" does not make any friends. I have heard from other members of AUTOCAT that I am not alone in this problem. Perhaps I am the only one to persist in scratching this itch so publically.

I need access for about 50 people for one semester this year. For them to be able to use these tools during class this summer term, I would need to increase the university's subscription by 16 people and risk locking the cataloging department out of the system.

The 30-day free trial order form makes it clear that the trial is for institutions by how it is set up. If I tell all my students to sign up for the free trial as individuals will they all get set up? What if one of them goofs and naively puts the University of South Carolina in the institution slot? Will the request be rejected?

And although 30 days might work in a summer term -- it does not work in a regular semester. And what about those students who take the two cataloging courses in different semesters, will they be able to get the free 30-day trial more than once?

Now, don't tell me I am "cheating" by even suggesting the use of the 30-day trial for this. I am just trying to find some way to provide practical access for my students, who come all at once, in large numbers and are doing cataloging together in lab session while on the web and sitting at computers all over the eastern seaboard!! I'd rather say to them, "Here, go into this URL and fill out the student order for shortterm access and pay for it."

Please, I have been a long supporter of LC. I have defended LC far and wide as being helpful to catalogers and a boon for cataloging. Don't refuse to even consider a solution to this problem by saying, "Tell the jerk it's illegal. That'll shut her up."

My main question was not about desk copy access for me. I have access thanks to the university's subscription. I am asking about access for my students.

Heidi

Judith P Cannan wrote:
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:59:00 -0400
From: Judith P Cannan 
Subject: Re: Library of Congress User Survey
To: [log in to unmask] 

Boy, what a wonderful reply, congrats. --judy

Judith P. Cannan
Chief, Instructional Design and Training Division
(202) 707-2031
[log in to unmask] 
Fax: (202) 707-0810

>>> [log in to unmask] 06/30/06 1:39 PM >>>
Heidi:

Thanks for raising the issue of "desk copy" access to Cataloger's Desktop and Classification Web. We have consulted with LC's Office for General Counsel (OGC) on this subject and they are very emphatic that it would violate federal law for us to either give away any product for which others pay, or to have differential pricing. Much as we would like to do what you are asking, we would be exposing ourselves to criminal prosecution if we did so.

Your best bet is to have your parent university subscribe to these products and pay the difference between their anticipated use level and your additional anticipated use. This is being successfully done in dozens of library schools.

Best wishes,

Bruce


Bruce Chr. Johnson
President, Association for Library Collections & Technical Services (ALCTS) 
a division of the American Library Association 

and 

Acting Assistant Chief
Cataloging Distribution Service
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540-4911 USA

202-707-1652 (voice) [log in to unmask] 
202-707-3959 (fax)

>>> Heidi Hoerman 06/30/06 1:06 PM >>>
Although this survey is aimed at those who use LC for its collections, I answered this so that my heavy use of the catalogs, authority files, and MARC pages for teaching would be recorded. I also made a point of the difficulty I have providing access to ClasWeb and Cataloger's Desktop to my students since no "onsite" licensing will work for us. 

Maybe this will be a way for us to get LC to recognize that to us faculty they are a publisher who is not making it possible for us to push their products to our students. 

All I want is "desk copy" access for me and semester long access for my registered students who are not doing their studying in our building -- heck some of our out-of-state cohort folks have never been in SC! Why is this so difficult for CDS to accommodate? We faculty are their best advertisers!

Heidi

Chad Abel-Kops wrote:
Dear All,

The Library of Congress wants to gain a better understanding of who its patrons are, what services they use, and the quality and value of those services. If you are a user of the Library of Congress, either on site or via the Web, we invite you to take a few minutes to give us your feedback using the online survey at:

http://osincsurvey.com/run/osl03loc 

This user survey is being conducted by Outsell, Inc. on behalf of the Library. All responses will be kept confidential. Only grouped data will be reported; your responses will not be singled out in the analysis. Thank you very much for using the Library of Congress.

CHAD ABEL-KOPS



Chad P. Abel-Kops
Senior Cataloger 
Library of Congress
Serial Record Division
Washington DC 20540-4160
202-707-6384 (phone)
[log in to unmask] (e-mail)



HEIDI LEE HOERMAN
SCHOOL OF LIBRARY AND INFORMATION SCIENCE
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA, COLUMBIA, SC 29205
PHONE: (803) 777-0485, (800) 277-2035 FAX: (803) 777-7938
EMAIL: [log in to unmask] (preferred) 
[log in to unmask] (second choice)
New (under contruction) URL: www.heidihoerman.com 
Old (soon to be wholly replaced) URL: http://www.libsci.sc.edu/hoerman/basepage.htm 



HEIDI LEE HOERMAN
SCHOOL OF LIBRARY AND INFORMATION SCIENCE
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA, COLUMBIA, SC 29205
PHONE: (803) 777-0485, (800) 277-2035 FAX: (803) 777-7938
EMAIL: [log in to unmask] (preferred) 
[log in to unmask] (second choice)
New (under contruction) URL: www.heidihoerman.com 
Old (soon to be wholly replaced) URL: http://www.libsci.sc.edu/hoerman/basepage.htm



HEIDI LEE HOERMAN
SCHOOL OF LIBRARY AND INFORMATION SCIENCE
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA, COLUMBIA, SC 29205
PHONE: (803) 777-0485, (800) 277-2035 FAX: (803) 777-7938
EMAIL: [log in to unmask] (preferred) 
           [log in to unmask] (second choice)
New (under contruction) URL: www.heidihoerman.com
Old (soon to be wholly replaced) URL: http://www.libsci.sc.edu/hoerman/basepage.htm

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