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ISOJAC  March 2007

ISOJAC March 2007

Subject:

Re: RESPONSE REQUESTED: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now

From:

"Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:45:54 -0400

Content-Type:

TEXT/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

TEXT/PLAIN (511 lines)

Yes, we have in the past processed requests involving name changes. And
this one affects the scope, so is even more necessary. We are
investigating with our users as to whether we may wish to define any of
the other items in 639-2.

Rebecca

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Hjulstad wrote:
>
> The only thing that affects ISO 639-2, as far as I can see, is
>
> [arc] Aramaic (639-2 and 639-3)
> Part 2 and Part 3: Change name to Official Aramaic (700 - 300 BCE);
> additional name: Imperial Aramaic (700 - 300 BCE)
> change French name(s) as needed
>
> None of the other items have been proposed for 639-2. If LoC thinks
> that we need a ballot for that, so be it. I shall be happy to prepare
> one. (But in 5 minutes I leave for a meeting and then for a week of
> vacation, so nothing will be done by me until about 10 April.)
>
> Best regards,
> Håvard
>
> --------------------
> Håvard Hjulstad
> Standard Norge / Standards Norway
> [log in to unmask]
> --------------------
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Milicent K Wewerka
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: RESPONSE REQUESTED: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
> Actually I think a ballot should be requested and processed. This is a major change in terms of 639-2 as it affects the MARC standard.
>
> Milicent Wewerka
>
> >>> Håvard Hjulstad <[log in to unmask]> 03/28/07 7:05 AM >>>
> Peter & Joan (and all),
>
> Hoping that any JAC member that would have a problem with this, I would
> say:
> - no ballot needed;
> - go ahead as suggested.
>
> Håvard
>
> --------------------
> Håvard Hjulstad
> Standard Norge / Standards Norway
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> --------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 8:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RESPONSE REQUESTED: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can
> settle this now
>
>
>
> Havard: Do you think we need ballots to process new entries or name
> changes for Aramaic varieties mentioned in Joan's mail, below?
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 10:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
>
>
> Thanks, Milicent & Joan, for comments. My immediate concern is to get
> closure on the issues. There's just a handful more to introduce, but I
> don't want to open new issues while we still have some that have been
> open for weeks now and need closure.
>
>
>
> Both Joan & Millicent are saying that this committee needs to process
> these Aramaic additions, and there are name adjustments to be made as
> well. Havard, do you think you should create ballots for these?
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Joan Spanne
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
>
>
>
> I agree with Milicent with regard to code elements that either clearly
> affect the denotation or reference information of a Part 2 code element,
> or might border on having an affect. The Aramaic languages with
> proposals for Part 3 come under that second grouping as being involved
> in the clarification of intended meaning for code elements in Part 2.
> Some of them may also be of interest for including in Part 2, which is
> also justification for inviting JAC consideration.
>
> There are dozens of new code requests in Part 3 that I would say have
> no immediate impact on Part 2, and I had not planned on bringing them to
> the JAC, unless you all state otherwise now. One other motivation for
> requesting JAC consideration of Part 3 change requests is if there is
> division regard in expressed public opinion on a change request.
>
> -Joan
>
>
>
>
> Milicent K Wewerka <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
> 03/15/2007 02:45 PM
>
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
> To
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think it would be wise to include 639-3 changes or additions in a
> process that includes in JAC. Decisions on 639-3 have an impact on
> 639-2 certainly in terms of scope of the definition of the languages.
>
> Milicent Wewerka
> Library of Congress
>
> >>> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]> 03/15/07 3:06 PM >>>
> None of the parts of ISO 639 * 1, 2 or 3 * actually specify any
> process for additions or changes other than the following:
>
> - the request must be supported by a justification
> - the JAC must provide a response to the RA within one month
>
> Each part does specify voting procedures, but doesn*t clearly state
> what JAC actions require a vote.
>
> Perhaps you*re assuming SIL will independently decide about additions
> to 639-3, while Joan is assuming the JAC will somehow be involved? (I
> realize as editor for 639-3 one might expect I*d know what the process
> is, but I just used existing text from parts 1/2.)
>
>
> Peter
>
> ________________________________
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Håvard Hjulstad
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:53 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
> New items in 639-3 should be processed according to the rules of
> 639-3.
> If any if these items should be considered for 639-2, that would need
> to
> be processed after 639-3 registration.
>
> Håvard
>
> --------------------
> Håvard Hjulstad
> Standard Norge / Standards Norway
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> --------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:59 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
> Thanks.
>
> So, we need others to chime in on whether they agree with the general
> plan. And we have some new entries for part 3 and possible part 2 to
> consider * I don*t know how we need to process those. Havard?
>
>
> Peter
>
> ________________________________
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Joan Spanne
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:51 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
>
> A summary of actions needed to adopt:
>
> [oar] Old Aramaic (639-3)
> Part 3: Change name to add dates: Old Aramaic (up to 700 BCE);
> additional name: Ancient Aramaic (up to 700 BCE)
> [include dates in all name forms?]
> Part 2: nothing unless it is proposed to be included in Part 2
>
>
> [arc] Aramaic (639-2 and 639-3)
> Part 2 and Part 3: Change name to Official Aramaic (700 - 300 BCE);
> additional name: Imperial Aramaic (700 - 300 BCE)
> change French name(s) as needed
>
>
> A change request has been filed to propose a new code element in
> 639-3:
> [avm] Middle Aramaic (300 BCE - ca. 200 CE)
> Part 2: nothing unless it is proposed to be included in Part 2.
> Considering the general lack of extant documents of this period, 639-2
> may not have need of it.
>
>
> [tmr] Talmudic Aramaic (639-3)
> Part 3: change name back to earlier draft designation (from
> Ethnologue)
> and add dates: Jewish Babylonian Aramaic (ca. 200-1200 CE)
> Part 2: nothing unless it is proposed to be included in Part 2.
>
>
> A change request has been filed to propose a new code element in
> 639-3:
> [jpa] Jewish Palestinian Aramaic (ca. 200-1200 CE)
> This is the variety of Aramaic found in the Targums of Onkelos and
> Jonathan, as well as the Palestinian Talmud and Midrashim.
> Part 2: nothing unless it is proposed to be included in Part 2
>
>
>
> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
> 03/12/2007 11:46 AM
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This looks good to me.
>
>
>
> Joan, can you summarize exactly what actions are needed to adopt?
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 8:16 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Fw: 639 issues: Aramaic - I think we can settle this now
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> After some research and a round of discussion on Aramaic with Anthony
> Aristar, this is what we propose:
>
> > [oar] Old Aramaic (up to 700 BCE); additional name: Ancient Aramaic
> > [arc] Official Aramaic (700 - 300 BCE); additional name: Imperial
> Aramaic
> > PROPOSED code element: [avm] Middle Aramaic (300 BCE - ca. 200 CE)
> > [tmr] Talmudic Aramaic (ca. 200-1200 CE) CHANGE NAME BACK TO
> ETHNOLOGUE DESIGNATION: Jewish Babylonian Aramaic
> >
> > (There are no identifiers available in [am-] or [ar-] ranges and
> only
> 4
> > total available [m--]
> > [adm] is available, but it seems likely that it would readily get
> confused
> > as [amd]--the latter being more mnemonic for Aramaic, Middle-- but
> it
> is
> > already assigned.)
> >In addition:
> > PROPOSED code element: [jpa] Jewish Palestinian Aramaic (ca.
> 200-1200
> CE)
> > to designate the Aramaic found in the Targums of Onkelos and
> Jonathan,
> > as well as the Palestinian Talmud and Midrashim.
>
> The return of [tmr] to the specific designation of Jewish Babylonian
> Aramaic is significant because to consider a single "Talmudic Aramaic"
> really would be proposing a collection (which we do not want to do),
> as
> the Aramaic languages of the 4th period (as listed here) are
> definitely
> distinct languages and are well attested. Classical Syriac and
> Classical
> Mandaic are others in this bunch that have their own code elements
> already (and are not affected by this proposal).
>
> Have a great week,
>
> Joan
>
> ----- Forwarded by Joan Spanne/IntlAdmin/WCT on 03/12/2007 10:01 AM
> -----
> Anthony Aristar <[log in to unmask]>
>
> 03/09/2007 12:43 PM
>
>
> To
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: 639 issues: Aramaic
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You are precisely accurate, Joan. Up to around 200 AD the varieties
> of
> Aramaic were similar enough at each time-period to be called dialects.
> But then the divergence of dialects which diachronic change naturally
> brings about, accompanied by the sharp political division between the
> Roman Empire and the Parthian (and later Persion) Empires, started to
> bring about such substantial changes that it becomes more reasonable
> to
> talk about distinct languages forming in different regions at the same
> time. It shouldn't have a single code, unless this code is clearly a
> collection.
>
> If the code-set is to be used in a scholarly fashion, keep the
> Ethnologue designation Jewish Babylonian Aramaic, and add at least one
> more code for Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, to designate the Aramaic
> found in the Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan, as well as the
> Palestinian Talmud and Midrashim, which is closely related to the
> Onkelos/Jonathan dialect. Talmudic Aramaic is emphatically a
> collection, and is not written in a single language: we require at
> least two language codes here, one the Jewish Palestinian Aramaic
> mentioned here, and the other the Aramaic found in the Babylonian
> Talmud. And the idea that the Talmudic material of the early period is
> somehow the "same" as the material from almost a 1000 years later...
>
> This is a very strange process, isn't it?
>
> Anthony
>
> Quoting [log in to unmask]:
>
> > Hi Anthony and Peter,
> >
> > I am trying to nail down the Aramaic situation for a concrete
> proposal to
> > the JAC. I have one remaining problem, which has not really come up
> > explicitly yet, but I am concerned it will eventually.
> >
> > In a simple world, I would propose:
> > [oar] Old Aramaic (up to 700 BCE); additional name: Ancient Aramaic
> > [arc] Official Aramaic (700 - 300 BCE); additional name: Imperial
> Aramaic
> > PROPOSED code element: [avm] Middle Aramaic (300 BCE - ca. 200 CE)
> > [tmr] Talmudic Aramaic (ca. 200-1200 CE)
> >
> > (There are no identifiers available in [am-] or [ar-] ranges and
> only
> 4
> > total available [m--]
> > [adm] is available, but it seems likely that it would readily get
> confused
> > as [amd]--the latter being more mnemonic for Aramaic, Middle-- which
> is
> > already assigned.)
> >
> > However, with my gift for making simple things complex, I am
> bothered
> by
> > the last entry:
> > [tmr] Talmudic Aramaic (ca. 200-1200 CE)
> > which in the Ethnologue is called Jewish Babylonian Aramaic.
> >
> > My limited research tells me that this 4th period in the history of
> the
> > Aramaic languages is not as uniform as the 1st and 2nd (nor is
> Middle
> > Aramaic, but it has far less extant material and therefore no
> settled
> > designations). The 4th period may be divided between Eastern and
> Western
> > groups. Jewish Babylonian Aramaic (the Ethnologue designation of
> [tmr]) is
> > a member of the Eastern group. Now we are proposing that [tmr]
> encompasses
> > more than that variety. The reason this bothers me is that [syc]
> Classical
> > Syriac and [myz] Classical Mandaic are the other two members of this
> > Eastern Group, but they both still have their own identifiers. So
> also
> > does Samaritan Aramaic of the Western group.
> >
> > I think it would be more sensible to retain the Ethnologue
> designation
> > Jewish Babylonian Aramaic and possibly add appropriate code elements
> other
> > members of the Western group (Jewish Palestinian Aramaic and
> > Syro-Palestinian Christian Aramaic), if warranted.
> >
> > As it is in the simple proposal, Talmudic Aramaic looks more like a
> > collection to me. You know this topic far better than I, Anthony. Am
> I off
> > base with my concern?
> >
> > -Joan
>
>
>
> **************************************
> Anthony Aristar, Director, Institute for Language Information &
> Technology
> Professor of Linguistics
> Moderator, LINGUIST Principal Investigator, EMELD
> Project
> Linguistics Program
> Dept. of English [log in to unmask]
> Eastern Michigan University 2000 Huron River Dr, Suite 104
> Ypsilanti, MI 48197
> U.S.A.
>
> URL: http://linguistlist.org/aristar/
> **************************************
>

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