LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ISOJAC Archives


ISOJAC Archives

ISOJAC Archives


[email protected]


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ISOJAC Home

ISOJAC Home

ISOJAC  April 2007

ISOJAC April 2007

Subject:

Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND

From:

Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:28 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (716 lines)

But it uses terminology of groups and collections, which seems to suggest that Valencian is a distinct language.


Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Milicent K Wewerka
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND

Regarding the data in the MARC language code list, the entry for
"Valencian Catalan" under the caption for Catalan indicates that the
Library of Congress considers Valencian Catalan to be a dialect of the
Catalan language.

Milicent Wewerka
Library of Congress

>>> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]> 04/04/07 9:07 PM >>>
I agree: purely from a linguistic perspective, there doesn't seem to be
more reason to think there's a language division than there was in past
times this came up.

If we were to add entries and turn cat into a macrolanguage, I think it
would be entirely up to MARC to decide how the category is presented in
that context. My only concern is that there should be alignment between
the identifiers used and the concept that's denoted. I think something
like "Catalan [cat] ... uf Valencian" does that.

Along that line, what I see in MARC 2003 seems a bit confusing or
misleading: "Catalan [cat] ... Also collective code for: ... Valencian
Catalan". To me, that seems to communicate that Valencian is a distinct
language, but the same ID is being used. Reading the Introduction (p.
vii), that seems to characterize cases like this as "group" codes. Am I
misunderstanding that, or is this just a glitch in the data?


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of
> Milicent K Wewerka
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
> Personally, I don't think Valencian is a separate language, so I'd
be
> opposed to a separate code for it.  However, it is up to the ISO
> committee to ballot it.  The suggestion that "cat" be used for a
> macrolanguage that encompasses the varieties of Catalonia and
Valencia
> would be workable for MARC.  However, we would want to retain the
> caption Catalan for that code in MARC.  I'm not sure what new ID
would
> be added to ISO for the "Catalan" that is restricted to the
Catalonia
> variety.  While the Valencians might support such a division, I
wonder
> what the people of Barcelona and the rest of Catalonia would think.
>
> Milicent Wewerka
> Library of Congress
>
>
> >>> Debbie Garside <[log in to unmask]> 04/03/07 2:27 PM >>>
> I am for the Valencian request.  I can go into detail as to why if
> required.
> I also think Peter's proposal is good...  "cat (macrolanguage)"
There
> are
> all sorts of reasons for this, not least that ICANN will thank us
for
> clarifying that the .cat TLD still incorporates Valencian despite
new
> separate codes for Catalan and Valencian.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie Garside
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of
> Joan Spanne
> Sent: 03 April 2007 15:51
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
>
> I agree with the set of actions to propose, if the request is
accepted
> to
> stand for review.
>
> We have the identical issue with Leonese and Asturian. I think I
copied
> this
> group on my earlier exchange with the submitters of a request for a
> code
> element for Leonese (which is as much connected with
Mirandese/Miranda
> do
> Duro as with Asturian, and Mirandese has its own code element.)
>
> I will be on vacation starting tomorrow for a week (4-11). I will
have
> to
> respond to these requesters before I leave today. If I allow this
> Valencian
> request, I think I also must contact the Leonese requesters and
allow
> their
> request to stand as well.
>
> Will the JAC make a decision on this (whether or not to allow the
> requests
> to stand for public review) by April 11?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
>
>
> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> 04/03/2007 09:09 AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don*t know at what point we go along with a *Balkan* factor of
> saying a
> language is distinct because there is a strong connection and
> association
> with an ethnic distinction. I*d be curious to know to what extent
> Catalans
> and Valencians are willing to invest in distinct language resources.
>
> If we were to accept their request, then I think the actions would
be:
>
>
> -          Change scope of ca / cat from individual language to
> macrolangage
>
> -          Change reference name of ca / cat to *Catalan-Valencian*
> or
> *Catalan (macrolangage)* or something along that line
> -          Add new ID for Valencian
> -          Add new ID for Catalan (individual language, excluding
> Valencian)
>
>
> We cannot, by the rules of 639-3, simply add an ID for Valencian and
> say
> that ca /cat no longer encompasses Valencian.
>
> As Michael has indicated, there is an IANA-registered subtag for
> Valencian
> that can be used to distinguish that variety in IETF language tags;
> hence
> *ca-valencia* denotes *Variety spoken in the "Comunidad
> Valenciana" region
> of Spain,  where it is co-official with Spanish.*
>
>
> Peter
>
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:32 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
> Subject: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> On Friday (the closing day for submitting change requests for the
first
> ISO
> 639-3 review period) I received a lengthy pair of forms regarding
> Valencian--again.
>
> I have turned them into PDF documents for ease of viewing, but they
> are
> otherwise identical to what the requesters sent in. (Their strategy
> apparently is to overwhelm and wear down by sheer volume, and today,
> with
> me, it would succeed.)
>
>
>
> I owe them a response, whether accepting their request for
> consideration, or
> rejecting it with a reason for rejection. (Peter suggested a
standard
> response letter might be needed in this case.)
>
> I think my memo of 22 November 2006 might not have made it to you
(it
> certainly got no response). In case not, I am including it here, as
> well as
> Rebecca's and Peter's message of 19 October, and the request
forwarded
> by
> Christian that let to it (beginning half way down).
>
> I am sorely tempted to let this run through the process and permit
the
> world
> to comment on it! (I am not doing this, yet.) Otherwise SIL, and
ISO,
> and
> the JAC will continue to look like the bad guys for persisting in
> denying
> their request.  It is not only a Part 3 problem, it is a
JAC-all-parts
> problem, so I strongly request your responses.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
> Joan Spanne
> ISO 639-3/RA
> SIL International
> 7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
> Dallas, TX 75236
> [log in to unmask]
>
> __________________
>
> Hello All,
>
> I am forwarding this to the JAC voting list to give you notice that
> the
> Valencian - Catalan discussion is not over yet. I anticipate a
change
> proposal will be made by Bernardo Arlandis Maño. Given the extent of
> prior
> discussion on this list regarding the matter, I thought it
appropriate
> to
> forward to you his comments on the case for Valencian as distinct
from
> "Catalan of Valencia" and my reply. If my reply does not accurately
> state
> the situation regarding the use and meaning of the code element
[cat],
> please enlighten me.
>
> -Joan
>
>
> ----- Forwarded by Joan Spanne/IntlAdmin/WCT on 11/22/2006 11:08 AM
> -----
>
>
>
> ISO639-3/IntlAdmin/WCT
> Sent by: Joan Spanne
>
>
> 11/22/2006 11:08 AM
>
>
>
>
> To
> Bernardo Arlandis Mañó <[log in to unmask]>
>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: Some questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Bernardo,
>
> We are still awaiting the announcement that ISO/FDIS 639-3 has
> achieved
> adopted status, but we hope that the announcement will be very soon,
as
> the
> final ISO member vote has closed. After that announcement, I think
we
> will
> allow one additional month for submitting change requests for this
> first
> round of review, since it is already much later than we had hoped
for
> achieving adopted status. So I expect we will set the final date for
> submitting change requests at 31 December (effectively 29 December),
> 2006,
> so that the three month public review process can begin on 1 January
> and end
> on 31 March, 2007.
>
> With regard to the decision between recommending a split of [cat]
into
> two
> code elements, or a name change for [cat] and a new code element for
> Valencian, I think I understand your position that Valencian is and
> always
> has been distinct from Catalan. However, I think that the the
reality
> of the
> use of the code element [cat] has been that it has included
Valencian
> proper
> (by that I mean the language Valencian that you are proposing to
add),
> not
> only "Catalan of Valencia." Therefore, I believe a split of the
[cat]
> code
> element must be considered the proper recommendation. However, I
would
> include in your rationale statement some discussion about the second
> possible alternative. I anticipate that this proposal will generate
a
> lot of
> discussion, so thoroughness in your statement, including this
> alternative
> analysis of the actual use versus the intended meaning of the code
> element
> [cat] may strengthen your proposal.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joan Spanne
> ISO 639-3/RA
> SIL International
> 7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
> Dallas, TX 75236
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
> Bernardo Arlandis Mañó <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> 11/21/2006 03:47 PM
>
>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Some questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Joan:
>
> As we're in the process of preparing our request for ISO639-3, we'd
> like
> to know what's the maximum date for sending the forms fulfilled.
>
> Also, we are in doubt about calling for a split (case 3 in the form)
of
>
> "catalan;balearic;valencian" into "catalan;balearic" and
"valencian",
> or
> requesting a name/scope change (case 1) for
> "catalan;balearic;valencian".
>
> The language we're going to request a new code for is older than
> catalan, and has always been known as "valencian", but this name has
> been mistakenly assigned to the "cat" code. If they wanted to allude
to
>
> the catalan used in Valencia they should have used a name like
"catalan
>
> of Valencia". So valencian is not a new language emerging from
catalan,
>
> we just want to retrieve the name because is the more appropiate one
> and
> will help clearing confussion.
>
> Knowing this, in addition to requesting the new code, do you think a
> split request is more appropiate than a simple modification to the
> "cat"
> code?
>
> Thanks. Sincerely,
>
> --
> Bernardo Arlandis Mañó
>
> {{ Bachelor of Computer Science  }}
> {{ Valencia - Spain              }}
> {{ http://softwarevalencia.com   }}
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
> 10/19/2006 09:08 AM
>
>
>
>
>
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> I REALLY need to get back to the people who sent me the large packet
> of
> books, articles, etc. trying to make the case for Valencian.
Milicent
> and
> I looked at it, and she also concluded that it should not be
> accepted. Havard, will you write such a statement, or were you
looking
> to
> us to do it? I do need to take care of this as soon as possible. A
> form
> letter would be good-- I have no email for the person who sent me
the
> items and I also am still getting requests for the language
> periodically.
>
> Rebecca
>
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Peter Constable wrote:
>
> > Perhaps it's time for an FAQ with an article discussing Valencian
> and
> > the reasons why it has not been accepted for coding as a distinct
> > language. Either that or Havard might want to keep a form letter
on
> > hand to send out every time someone new comes along making the
same
> > request. :-)
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> Of Christian Galinski
> > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 3:59 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: FW: The neccesity of Valencian locale in ISO 639
> >
> > FYI
> > Best regards
> > Christian
> >
> >
> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dr. Christian Galinski, Director
> > Infoterm - International Information Centre for Terminology
> Mariahilfer
> Strasse 123/3, A-1060 Vienna, Austria
> > T: +43-664-344 6181
> > [log in to unmask]  -  http://www.infoterm.info
> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Founded in 1971 by UNESCO to promote and organize co-operation in
> the
> field of terminology worldwide
> __________________________________________________
> > THIS E-MAIL HAS BEEN SCANNED FOR ALL KNOWN VIRUSES
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mavorte [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:53 AM
> > To: Infopoint
> > Subject: The neccesity of Valencian locale in ISO 639
> >
> > I want to coment the registration of a language, and I try to
explain
> as
> well as I can my historical, linguistic and technical reasons:
> >
> > The language are Valencian, in Valencian Comunity (Spain). It's a
> language
> which was born from an ancient catalan carried on in the Spanish
> Reconquest
> to Valencia which have influences of arab, mozarab, aragonese and
> castilian
> (spanish). Valencian was born in Valencia city and then this
language
> was
> extended for all the ancient Kingdom of Valencia, nowadays Valencian
> Comunity in Spain. There are differencies between catalan and
valencian
> I
> show you after a brief history of the valencian language:
> > 1238: Conquest of Jaume I
> > 1283: The book of Ramon Llull "Blanquerna" write in the title and
> back
> page of a traslation to valencian: "Book of prayers to the
> understanding of
> God compound by the iluminated doctor and martyr the master Ramon
> Llull.
> > Translated and corrected from the originals in valencian language"
> >
> > 1489: Joan Esteve write the first diccionary latin/valencian
"Liber
> > Elegantiorum": "escrit en latin et valentiana lingua exactissima
> diligentia emmendatus" : "write in latin and valencian language..."
(I
> don't
> know latin very well :) )
> >
> > 1.490, Joanot Martorell "Tirant lo Blanch" "me atreuire expondre:
no
> solament de lengua anglesa en portuguesa. Mas encara de portoguesa
en
> vulgar
> > valenciana: per ço que la nacio don yo soc natural se puxa alegrar
e
> molt
> aiudar per los tats e ta malignes actes coz hi son." (I expose: not
> only
> from english to potuguese language, and from portuguese to vulgar
> valencian:
> > because it is from I'm...)
> >
> > 1764: Carles Ros: "Diccionary Valencian Castilian (spanish)" and
> "Tratat
> de adages y refranys valencians y practica pera escriure ab
perfecciò
> la
> lengua valenciana (valencian language)"
> >
> > 1878: Lo Rat Penat is a organization which collected the valencian
> spelling
> >
> > 1894: Jose Nebot i Perez "Apuntes para una gramatica valenciana
> popular
> (Notes for a valencian popular grammar"
> >
> > 20th january 1915: Creation of RACV (Royal Academy of Valencian
> Culture),
> his web is in valencian: http://www.racv.es
> >
> > 1918: Bernat Ortin Benedito "Valencian Grammar"
> >
> > 21st december 1932: Basis of Castellón, the first official rules
to
> Valencian
> >
> > 1933: Luis Fullana i Mira, who signed the Basis of Castellón,
> regreted and
> re-edit the valencian rules
> >
> > 1979: RACV (which signed the Basis of Castellón) wrote a spelling
> seemed
> to the spelling of Luis Fullana i Mira
> >
> > 7th mars 1983: Rules of El Puig signed by the RACV
> > 1983 (same year): The valencian government started to use the
Basis
> of
> Castellon
> >
> > 23rd july 2001: Creation of AVL (Academy of Valencian Language)
> created by
> the valencian government, his web in valencian is
> http://www.avl.gva.es/
> >
> > Well, I tried to explain the history as sort as I can, well go on
> with the
> linguisitics reasons:
> > 1. There are many different words, I enclose to this email an
example
> in
> order you can check some of the differences (file: "tabla
> > catalan-valenciano.txt")
> > 2. The participle of verb "to be" in valencian is "sigut" and not
> "estat"
> > like catalan
> > 3. The infinitve of all verbs catalans ended in "-tenir", in
> valencian is
> "-tindre"
> > 4. The infinitive and conjugation of all verbs ended in "-posar"
in
> catalan is ended in "-pondre" in valencian, I enclose a file of the
> differences in the conjugation of the verb "defendre", "defensar" in
> catalan
> (file: "verb defendre in valencian.txt") 5. The catalan verbal
> interfix
> "eix" is "ix" in valencian 6. In the plurals of names, the called
> "etymological n" appear whereas in catalan not 7. The desnence
verbal
> of
> verbs ended in "-ar" is "-o" in catalan and "-e"
> > in valencian
> > I don't remember more diferencies now, but obviously exist grammar
> differences between catalan and valencian, are similar languages but
> not the
> same, and the valencian it's regulated by own academies. In fact,
the
> European Constitution was translated to valencian, apart of in
catalan
> and
> in the rest of regional languages of Spain.
> >
> > The technical reason is that we need a locale ISO for valencian, I
> enclose
> a file (in English) to the "Project LliureX" (a program based on
> Linux)
> which they have to "invent" the locale "valencia_ES" (file:
> "FWV2004CDD-STO.pdf").
> > The another alternative to try to be seemed to this ISO rules is
> "ca_ES@valencia" used in Operative Systems like Debian and Ubuntu. I
> propose
> create (following your rules) the locale "va_ES" to end with this
> situation
> of chaos (In English "Valencian", in french "Valencien" and in
> valencian
> "Valencià").
> >
> > I write you because I'm a person (among very other persons) who
need
> an
> ISO locale for valencian, and I don't know how to do it. Furthermore
> the
> co-official language in Valencian Comunity is valencian and no
catalan
> (said
> by the Statute of Autonomy of Valencian Comunity, article 6), i
enclose
> a
> table about an study of the spanish government (done by CIS) about
the
> use
> of the different languages in our country (I translate into English:
> > "Languages in Spain.doc"), extracted from this web in spanish:
> > http://www.gees.org/articulo/1006/ : it says 39% of the population
> use
> valencian as a maternal language and 1% use catalan in Valencian
> Comunity
> >
> > Thank you in advance for your attention and I'm looking forward
for
> you
> response
> >
> > PD: You can have doubts because some people say it's a dialect of
> catalan
> and others say it's an own language, but the fact is valencian have
> differences from catalan, and is a co-official language in Valencian
> Comunity (Spain) and we need a locale ISO. Contact me whatever you
> want.
> >

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

April 2021
January 2021
November 2020
June 2020
May 2019
February 2019
September 2018
April 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
May 2016
April 2016
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
May 2013
April 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager