But it uses terminology of groups and collections, which seems to suggest that Valencian is a distinct language.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Milicent K Wewerka
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
Regarding the data in the MARC language code list, the entry for
"Valencian Catalan" under the caption for Catalan indicates that the
Library of Congress considers Valencian Catalan to be a dialect of the
Catalan language.
Milicent Wewerka
Library of Congress
>>> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]> 04/04/07 9:07 PM >>>
I agree: purely from a linguistic perspective, there doesn't seem to be
more reason to think there's a language division than there was in past
times this came up.
If we were to add entries and turn cat into a macrolanguage, I think it
would be entirely up to MARC to decide how the category is presented in
that context. My only concern is that there should be alignment between
the identifiers used and the concept that's denoted. I think something
like "Catalan [cat] ... uf Valencian" does that.
Along that line, what I see in MARC 2003 seems a bit confusing or
misleading: "Catalan [cat] ... Also collective code for: ... Valencian
Catalan". To me, that seems to communicate that Valencian is a distinct
language, but the same ID is being used. Reading the Introduction (p.
vii), that seems to characterize cases like this as "group" codes. Am I
misunderstanding that, or is this just a glitch in the data?
Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of
> Milicent K Wewerka
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
> Personally, I don't think Valencian is a separate language, so I'd
be
> opposed to a separate code for it. However, it is up to the ISO
> committee to ballot it. The suggestion that "cat" be used for a
> macrolanguage that encompasses the varieties of Catalonia and
Valencia
> would be workable for MARC. However, we would want to retain the
> caption Catalan for that code in MARC. I'm not sure what new ID
would
> be added to ISO for the "Catalan" that is restricted to the
Catalonia
> variety. While the Valencians might support such a division, I
wonder
> what the people of Barcelona and the rest of Catalonia would think.
>
> Milicent Wewerka
> Library of Congress
>
>
> >>> Debbie Garside <[log in to unmask]> 04/03/07 2:27 PM >>>
> I am for the Valencian request. I can go into detail as to why if
> required.
> I also think Peter's proposal is good... "cat (macrolanguage)"
There
> are
> all sorts of reasons for this, not least that ICANN will thank us
for
> clarifying that the .cat TLD still incorporates Valencian despite
new
> separate codes for Catalan and Valencian.
>
> Best regards
>
> Debbie Garside
>
>
> _____
>
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of
> Joan Spanne
> Sent: 03 April 2007 15:51
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
>
> I agree with the set of actions to propose, if the request is
accepted
> to
> stand for review.
>
> We have the identical issue with Leonese and Asturian. I think I
copied
> this
> group on my earlier exchange with the submitters of a request for a
> code
> element for Leonese (which is as much connected with
Mirandese/Miranda
> do
> Duro as with Asturian, and Mirandese has its own code element.)
>
> I will be on vacation starting tomorrow for a week (4-11). I will
have
> to
> respond to these requesters before I leave today. If I allow this
> Valencian
> request, I think I also must contact the Leonese requesters and
allow
> their
> request to stand as well.
>
> Will the JAC make a decision on this (whether or not to allow the
> requests
> to stand for public review) by April 11?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
>
>
> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> 04/03/2007 09:09 AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don*t know at what point we go along with a *Balkan* factor of
> saying a
> language is distinct because there is a strong connection and
> association
> with an ethnic distinction. I*d be curious to know to what extent
> Catalans
> and Valencians are willing to invest in distinct language resources.
>
> If we were to accept their request, then I think the actions would
be:
>
>
> - Change scope of ca / cat from individual language to
> macrolangage
>
> - Change reference name of ca / cat to *Catalan-Valencian*
> or
> *Catalan (macrolangage)* or something along that line
> - Add new ID for Valencian
> - Add new ID for Catalan (individual language, excluding
> Valencian)
>
>
> We cannot, by the rules of 639-3, simply add an ID for Valencian and
> say
> that ca /cat no longer encompasses Valencian.
>
> As Michael has indicated, there is an IANA-registered subtag for
> Valencian
> that can be used to distinguish that variety in IETF language tags;
> hence
> *ca-valencia* denotes *Variety spoken in the "Comunidad
> Valenciana" region
> of Spain, where it is co-official with Spanish.*
>
>
> Peter
>
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:32 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
> Subject: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> On Friday (the closing day for submitting change requests for the
first
> ISO
> 639-3 review period) I received a lengthy pair of forms regarding
> Valencian--again.
>
> I have turned them into PDF documents for ease of viewing, but they
> are
> otherwise identical to what the requesters sent in. (Their strategy
> apparently is to overwhelm and wear down by sheer volume, and today,
> with
> me, it would succeed.)
>
>
>
> I owe them a response, whether accepting their request for
> consideration, or
> rejecting it with a reason for rejection. (Peter suggested a
standard
> response letter might be needed in this case.)
>
> I think my memo of 22 November 2006 might not have made it to you
(it
> certainly got no response). In case not, I am including it here, as
> well as
> Rebecca's and Peter's message of 19 October, and the request
forwarded
> by
> Christian that let to it (beginning half way down).
>
> I am sorely tempted to let this run through the process and permit
the
> world
> to comment on it! (I am not doing this, yet.) Otherwise SIL, and
ISO,
> and
> the JAC will continue to look like the bad guys for persisting in
> denying
> their request. It is not only a Part 3 problem, it is a
JAC-all-parts
> problem, so I strongly request your responses.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
> Joan Spanne
> ISO 639-3/RA
> SIL International
> 7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
> Dallas, TX 75236
> [log in to unmask]
>
> __________________
>
> Hello All,
>
> I am forwarding this to the JAC voting list to give you notice that
> the
> Valencian - Catalan discussion is not over yet. I anticipate a
change
> proposal will be made by Bernardo Arlandis Maño. Given the extent of
> prior
> discussion on this list regarding the matter, I thought it
appropriate
> to
> forward to you his comments on the case for Valencian as distinct
from
> "Catalan of Valencia" and my reply. If my reply does not accurately
> state
> the situation regarding the use and meaning of the code element
[cat],
> please enlighten me.
>
> -Joan
>
>
> ----- Forwarded by Joan Spanne/IntlAdmin/WCT on 11/22/2006 11:08 AM
> -----
>
>
>
> ISO639-3/IntlAdmin/WCT
> Sent by: Joan Spanne
>
>
> 11/22/2006 11:08 AM
>
>
>
>
> To
> Bernardo Arlandis Mañó <[log in to unmask]>
>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: Some questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Bernardo,
>
> We are still awaiting the announcement that ISO/FDIS 639-3 has
> achieved
> adopted status, but we hope that the announcement will be very soon,
as
> the
> final ISO member vote has closed. After that announcement, I think
we
> will
> allow one additional month for submitting change requests for this
> first
> round of review, since it is already much later than we had hoped
for
> achieving adopted status. So I expect we will set the final date for
> submitting change requests at 31 December (effectively 29 December),
> 2006,
> so that the three month public review process can begin on 1 January
> and end
> on 31 March, 2007.
>
> With regard to the decision between recommending a split of [cat]
into
> two
> code elements, or a name change for [cat] and a new code element for
> Valencian, I think I understand your position that Valencian is and
> always
> has been distinct from Catalan. However, I think that the the
reality
> of the
> use of the code element [cat] has been that it has included
Valencian
> proper
> (by that I mean the language Valencian that you are proposing to
add),
> not
> only "Catalan of Valencia." Therefore, I believe a split of the
[cat]
> code
> element must be considered the proper recommendation. However, I
would
> include in your rationale statement some discussion about the second
> possible alternative. I anticipate that this proposal will generate
a
> lot of
> discussion, so thoroughness in your statement, including this
> alternative
> analysis of the actual use versus the intended meaning of the code
> element
> [cat] may strengthen your proposal.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joan Spanne
> ISO 639-3/RA
> SIL International
> 7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
> Dallas, TX 75236
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
> Bernardo Arlandis Mañó <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> 11/21/2006 03:47 PM
>
>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
>
> cc
>
> Subject
> Some questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Joan:
>
> As we're in the process of preparing our request for ISO639-3, we'd
> like
> to know what's the maximum date for sending the forms fulfilled.
>
> Also, we are in doubt about calling for a split (case 3 in the form)
of
>
> "catalan;balearic;valencian" into "catalan;balearic" and
"valencian",
> or
> requesting a name/scope change (case 1) for
> "catalan;balearic;valencian".
>
> The language we're going to request a new code for is older than
> catalan, and has always been known as "valencian", but this name has
> been mistakenly assigned to the "cat" code. If they wanted to allude
to
>
> the catalan used in Valencia they should have used a name like
"catalan
>
> of Valencia". So valencian is not a new language emerging from
catalan,
>
> we just want to retrieve the name because is the more appropiate one
> and
> will help clearing confussion.
>
> Knowing this, in addition to requesting the new code, do you think a
> split request is more appropiate than a simple modification to the
> "cat"
> code?
>
> Thanks. Sincerely,
>
> --
> Bernardo Arlandis Mañó
>
> {{ Bachelor of Computer Science }}
> {{ Valencia - Spain }}
> {{ http://softwarevalencia.com }}
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
> 10/19/2006 09:08 AM
>
>
>
>
>
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> I REALLY need to get back to the people who sent me the large packet
> of
> books, articles, etc. trying to make the case for Valencian.
Milicent
> and
> I looked at it, and she also concluded that it should not be
> accepted. Havard, will you write such a statement, or were you
looking
> to
> us to do it? I do need to take care of this as soon as possible. A
> form
> letter would be good-- I have no email for the person who sent me
the
> items and I also am still getting requests for the language
> periodically.
>
> Rebecca
>
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Peter Constable wrote:
>
> > Perhaps it's time for an FAQ with an article discussing Valencian
> and
> > the reasons why it has not been accepted for coding as a distinct
> > language. Either that or Havard might want to keep a form letter
on
> > hand to send out every time someone new comes along making the
same
> > request. :-)
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> Of Christian Galinski
> > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 3:59 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: FW: The neccesity of Valencian locale in ISO 639
> >
> > FYI
> > Best regards
> > Christian
> >
> >
> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dr. Christian Galinski, Director
> > Infoterm - International Information Centre for Terminology
> Mariahilfer
> Strasse 123/3, A-1060 Vienna, Austria
> > T: +43-664-344 6181
> > [log in to unmask] - http://www.infoterm.info
> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Founded in 1971 by UNESCO to promote and organize co-operation in
> the
> field of terminology worldwide
> __________________________________________________
> > THIS E-MAIL HAS BEEN SCANNED FOR ALL KNOWN VIRUSES
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mavorte [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:53 AM
> > To: Infopoint
> > Subject: The neccesity of Valencian locale in ISO 639
> >
> > I want to coment the registration of a language, and I try to
explain
> as
> well as I can my historical, linguistic and technical reasons:
> >
> > The language are Valencian, in Valencian Comunity (Spain). It's a
> language
> which was born from an ancient catalan carried on in the Spanish
> Reconquest
> to Valencia which have influences of arab, mozarab, aragonese and
> castilian
> (spanish). Valencian was born in Valencia city and then this
language
> was
> extended for all the ancient Kingdom of Valencia, nowadays Valencian
> Comunity in Spain. There are differencies between catalan and
valencian
> I
> show you after a brief history of the valencian language:
> > 1238: Conquest of Jaume I
> > 1283: The book of Ramon Llull "Blanquerna" write in the title and
> back
> page of a traslation to valencian: "Book of prayers to the
> understanding of
> God compound by the iluminated doctor and martyr the master Ramon
> Llull.
> > Translated and corrected from the originals in valencian language"
> >
> > 1489: Joan Esteve write the first diccionary latin/valencian
"Liber
> > Elegantiorum": "escrit en latin et valentiana lingua exactissima
> diligentia emmendatus" : "write in latin and valencian language..."
(I
> don't
> know latin very well :) )
> >
> > 1.490, Joanot Martorell "Tirant lo Blanch" "me atreuire expondre:
no
> solament de lengua anglesa en portuguesa. Mas encara de portoguesa
en
> vulgar
> > valenciana: per ço que la nacio don yo soc natural se puxa alegrar
e
> molt
> aiudar per los tats e ta malignes actes coz hi son." (I expose: not
> only
> from english to potuguese language, and from portuguese to vulgar
> valencian:
> > because it is from I'm...)
> >
> > 1764: Carles Ros: "Diccionary Valencian Castilian (spanish)" and
> "Tratat
> de adages y refranys valencians y practica pera escriure ab
perfecciò
> la
> lengua valenciana (valencian language)"
> >
> > 1878: Lo Rat Penat is a organization which collected the valencian
> spelling
> >
> > 1894: Jose Nebot i Perez "Apuntes para una gramatica valenciana
> popular
> (Notes for a valencian popular grammar"
> >
> > 20th january 1915: Creation of RACV (Royal Academy of Valencian
> Culture),
> his web is in valencian: http://www.racv.es
> >
> > 1918: Bernat Ortin Benedito "Valencian Grammar"
> >
> > 21st december 1932: Basis of Castellón, the first official rules
to
> Valencian
> >
> > 1933: Luis Fullana i Mira, who signed the Basis of Castellón,
> regreted and
> re-edit the valencian rules
> >
> > 1979: RACV (which signed the Basis of Castellón) wrote a spelling
> seemed
> to the spelling of Luis Fullana i Mira
> >
> > 7th mars 1983: Rules of El Puig signed by the RACV
> > 1983 (same year): The valencian government started to use the
Basis
> of
> Castellon
> >
> > 23rd july 2001: Creation of AVL (Academy of Valencian Language)
> created by
> the valencian government, his web in valencian is
> http://www.avl.gva.es/
> >
> > Well, I tried to explain the history as sort as I can, well go on
> with the
> linguisitics reasons:
> > 1. There are many different words, I enclose to this email an
example
> in
> order you can check some of the differences (file: "tabla
> > catalan-valenciano.txt")
> > 2. The participle of verb "to be" in valencian is "sigut" and not
> "estat"
> > like catalan
> > 3. The infinitve of all verbs catalans ended in "-tenir", in
> valencian is
> "-tindre"
> > 4. The infinitive and conjugation of all verbs ended in "-posar"
in
> catalan is ended in "-pondre" in valencian, I enclose a file of the
> differences in the conjugation of the verb "defendre", "defensar" in
> catalan
> (file: "verb defendre in valencian.txt") 5. The catalan verbal
> interfix
> "eix" is "ix" in valencian 6. In the plurals of names, the called
> "etymological n" appear whereas in catalan not 7. The desnence
verbal
> of
> verbs ended in "-ar" is "-o" in catalan and "-e"
> > in valencian
> > I don't remember more diferencies now, but obviously exist grammar
> differences between catalan and valencian, are similar languages but
> not the
> same, and the valencian it's regulated by own academies. In fact,
the
> European Constitution was translated to valencian, apart of in
catalan
> and
> in the rest of regional languages of Spain.
> >
> > The technical reason is that we need a locale ISO for valencian, I
> enclose
> a file (in English) to the "Project LliureX" (a program based on
> Linux)
> which they have to "invent" the locale "valencia_ES" (file:
> "FWV2004CDD-STO.pdf").
> > The another alternative to try to be seemed to this ISO rules is
> "ca_ES@valencia" used in Operative Systems like Debian and Ubuntu. I
> propose
> create (following your rules) the locale "va_ES" to end with this
> situation
> of chaos (In English "Valencian", in french "Valencien" and in
> valencian
> "Valencià").
> >
> > I write you because I'm a person (among very other persons) who
need
> an
> ISO locale for valencian, and I don't know how to do it. Furthermore
> the
> co-official language in Valencian Comunity is valencian and no
catalan
> (said
> by the Statute of Autonomy of Valencian Comunity, article 6), i
enclose
> a
> table about an study of the spanish government (done by CIS) about
the
> use
> of the different languages in our country (I translate into English:
> > "Languages in Spain.doc"), extracted from this web in spanish:
> > http://www.gees.org/articulo/1006/ : it says 39% of the population
> use
> valencian as a maternal language and 1% use catalan in Valencian
> Comunity
> >
> > Thank you in advance for your attention and I'm looking forward
for
> you
> response
> >
> > PD: You can have doubts because some people say it's a dialect of
> catalan
> and others say it's an own language, but the fact is valencian have
> differences from catalan, and is a co-official language in Valencian
> Comunity (Spain) and we need a locale ISO. Contact me whatever you
> want.
> >
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