LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for EDUCAT Archives


EDUCAT Archives

EDUCAT Archives


EDUCAT@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

EDUCAT Home

EDUCAT Home

EDUCAT  July 2007

EDUCAT July 2007

Subject:

Re: Martha Yee's comments on LIS education (fwd)

From:

"Rinne, Nathan (ESC)" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Discussion List for issues related to cataloging & metadata education & training <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:32:16 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

Danielle said:

"I think we all agree that we need more investments in cataloging and
metadata creation, not fewer, although those investments *will not and
cannot be targeted at traditional cataloging, the way we've 'always'
done it.* Yee and others would be much better equipped to argue against
outsourcing and eliminating cataloging practices if they recognized that
essential truth... I'm a medievalist by training..." (end)

Danielle, I think the way we've done it in the past 100 years is in
several ways the best way (not in all, to be sure), albeit the tradition
is not long as you say.  I just posted the following on AUTOCAT: 

I hope everyone is willing to suffer my getting philosophical.  Everyone
is so big on "conversation" these days: Conversation is knowledge, etc.
(I think "content", in some sense, too).  Admittedly, I think blogs for
instance, are great, even as they admittedly can give us just another
way of avoiding the "on the ground", "face-to-face" realities we
physically encounter.  And of course, I don't deny that in all of this
participating, dialoging, conversing, etc. there is "love" and
"community" to be found online (see Clay Shirkey here:
http://tinyurl.com/2em6zs ), in some sense, but it seems to me that love
is *especially willing* to engage in difficult and substantial
conversations surrounding practical, on the ground realities (not
displacing the need for theories!) - something I do not sense is
happening in the area of vocabulary control for instance (do some in the
library / library cataloging world think this is going to mysteriously
happen "on the fly", "as we go", etc.? [like Wikipedia] - are there more
concrete reasons [besides faith] for thinking these things will be
effectively taken care of that I am not aware of?)  

Now - and I am getting to the point - it seems to me that it is not only
an act of love to pay close and careful attention (being like a
collector who finds things to be interesting and unique) to specific
items as well as the broader [again: unique and interesting] contexts
that we, as catalogers deal with.  It is also love when librarians
*explicitly recognize the need* to call something out there in our
shared world *these words and not other words - this form and not other
forms* for the sake of common understanding (we may not totally agree
with everything, but...) - because we ultimately want to not only be
able to recognize others, but to be involved with them - and to
hopefully accomplish great work with them.  This is what catalogers do
as they carefully and lovingly examine and describe items in their
larger contexts for the sake of making things findable through words
that the wider community can recognize and identify with (not always
their first picks, but we try to fix that to by working together).  Clay
Shirkey may call what we do "imposing your words, classifications,
taxonomies on me" (i.e. power, domination, see his article "Ontology is
Overrated" for more) and look for love in other places, but I would
appeal to him to recognize that if that is indeed the case to some
extent, there is also great love mixed in here as well.  Now - if we in
the larger library community don't see the importance of the hard work
of doing this among ourselves - and this is where the lack of emphasis
on cataloging in our profession comes in - how will we find good,
effective cooperation (hopefully for the common good) with the other
metadata communities? 

Or does anyone think all of this can be taken care of by making all our
authority records web-pages (URIs), or something like that?  I am
interested to hear more about how this might work.  Anyone want to
tackle that (start new thread :) )?

Nathan Rinne
Media Cataloging Technician
ISD 279 - Educational Service Center (ESC) 
11200 93rd Ave. North
Maple Grove, MN. 55369
Work phone: 763-391-7183
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion List for issues related to cataloging & metadata
education & training [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Danielle
Plumer
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 10:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Martha Yee's comments on LIS education (fwd)

The text of Martha Yee's paper, for those not on AUTOCAT (like me), has
been posted on the cataloging wiki at James Madison University as a word
document. You can get it at http://tinyurl.com/2vcqvx

My major concern with Yee's paper, and with others like it, is that she
doesn't seem willing to admit that the tools being used for automated
indexing and classification of materials are extremely complex and the
subject of massive investments in research and development. Google and
Amazon's algorithms are much more than "word counting or counting the
number of times users gain access to a particular URL," and the presence
of these over-simplistic and indeed mistaken attacks makes me uninclined
to give any of Yee's other arguments much credence.

Where automated systems really shine is with textually-rich materials,
particularly full-text, an area with which library cataloging has not
traditionally been concerned. Automated systems can do nothing with a
physical object if it has not already been converted to digital form;
instead, these systems rely on human-created surrogates (metadata)
generated by publishers, authors, readers, and, yes, catalogers. I
myself am convinced that more and more materials will be available
digitally in the future, including not only new works but also products
of retrospective conversion. It therefore seems common sense to me that
cataloging needs to learn to use these new tools, and, therefore, that
cataloging education needs to change to include more and different
methods of information organization. I actually applaud organization of
information courses that look at how supermarkets are organized!

Although neither a professor of cataloging nor a cataloger myself (or so
I've been told, as I work primarily with non-MARC metadata), I have
great respect for cataloging, and, indeed, I know folks at Google and
Yahoo! who express continued respect for and appreciation of the work of
catalogers. I think we all agree that we need more investments in
cataloging and metadata creation, not fewer, although those investments
will not and cannot be targeted at traditional cataloging, the way we've
"always" done it. Yee and others would be much better equipped to argue
against outsourcing and eliminating cataloging practices if they
recognized that essential truth.

N.B. I'm a medievalist by training, so I have to point out that our
"traditions" of cataloging have mostly been developed in a mere century
of practice! I don't think that's quite enough time to show that they
have "permanent" utility.

Danielle Cunniff Plumer, Ph.D., M.S.I.S.
Coordinator, Texas Heritage Digitization Initiative
Texas State Library and Archives Commission
512.463.5852 (phone) / 512.936.2306 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

+++Opinions expressed in this email are mine alone and do not
necessarily reflect the views of the Texas State Library and Archives
Commission, the Texas Heritage Digitization Initiative, or any other
organization+++

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
July 2020
June 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
March 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
December 2007
November 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
April 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager