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ISOJAC  September 2008

ISOJAC September 2008

Subject:

Re: Võro request revisited (again)

From:

Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:42:15 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

I'd support either option 2 or option 3, though I think we need to be very cautious about option 2: this is similar to what we did in the case of fy/fry (clarified by changing name from "Frisian" to "Western Frisian"), and there have been a few in the IETF-languages community that have complained about that.

Whatever change we make, I think we need to make sure that the names we record reasonably reflect the intended semantic. So, if we adopt option 2, that would mean changing the name for et/est from "Estonian" to "Standard Estonian" or "Estonian (northern varieties)" or something else in that vein. And that change should be done in part 2 as well as part 3, even if an ID for Vöro isn't added to part 2.


Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patton,Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Võro request revisited (again)

I would agree with Rebecca.

--Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rebecca S. Guenther
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 2:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ISOJAC] Võro request revisited (again)

I don't think that we have proven that Voro has satisfied the criteria for
639-2 (and Joan is not proposing that here), and we put it on hold until
requests were considered for 639-3 when we first got the request.

I would favor the 2nd alternative, to assign Voro a code element in 639-3
and leave Estonian as is for now to mean classic Estonian. I think it is
less disruptive for users.

Rebecca

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Joan Spanne wrote:

> Hello JAC,
>
> Time to revisit the Võro proposal yet again. I am going to attempt a
> summary of the case (this is not a history of the request).
>
> Sulev Iva has submitted a request for Võro to be separated from Estonian.
> He has done so both to the ISO 639-2 RA (way back in 2005), and
> subsequently to the ISO 639-3 RA in 2008 (when I received the forms).
>
> I sent a memo on May 29 to the JAC, some which I will paraphrase:
>
> It is fairly clear that this does not meet the criteria for "chipping off"
> because (1) there are a reasonable number of works  identified as being in
> Võro (or Võru or Võrumaa, just different spelling) or Setu that use [est]
> in the 008/041 field just in the Library of Congress online catalog [my
> previous estimate was quite low; probably there are more than 40 works
> among the >4600 works in Estonian]; and (2) Setu, a variety that is very
> closely associated with Võro (sometimes as a sub-dialect, sometimes as a
> separate, close South Estonian variety; depends on the researcher) is
> declared by the MARC code list of languages to be included in the scope of
> [est].
>
> This seems to be a candidate for a macrolanguage for Estonian [est]
> separating Northern Estonian (including Standard Estonian) and Võro.
>
> There is plenty of documentation that Võro is undergoing a process of
> active, intentional development and standardization as a literary
> language, based on spoken Võro and other South Estonian varieties,
> supported by the Estonian government through the Võro Institute. Present
> day Võro development is somewhat affected by the old South Estonian
> literary language Tartu, which has a distinct history going back to the
> 16th century through works coming from the Lutheran reformation. Setu,
> another South Estonian spoken variety, also has some influence. However,
> it appears that currently Võro is the variety experiencing the renaissance
> and standardization. (Sometimes it is actually referred to as Võro-Setu)
>
> It is really point 2 above that precludes chipping off (the MARC code list
> specification), as we do have a stable diglossia existing between Standard
> Estonian and Võro, and by my current estimate, we are still talking about
> less than 1% of the total number of written works. On the other hand, if
> we try to consider Southern Estonian more broadly for a split (or a
> macrolanguage), we would need to contend with the existence of older works
> written in Tartu, which could equally be described as Southern Estonian,
> while they would not be confused with works coming from the modern revival
> and standardization of Võro.
>
> There are four possible options:
> Split [est] into Standard Estonian (or Northern Estonian) and Võro (or
> Southern Estonian);
> Chip off Võro and simply assign it its own code element in Part 3 (I might
> argue that, during an earlier stage of 639 management, if the requester
> had demonstrated a sufficient number of documents, a Part 2 code element
> would probably have been assigned without much discussion);
> Change the scope of [est] to macrolanguage in Part 2 and assign two new
> code elements in Part 3 for Standard Estonian and Võro, Tartu as a
> historical language could be considered in the future without conflict;
> Do nothing and allow Part 6 to handle it.
>
> I think only 2 and 3 are worth considering. Either solution needs some
> clarification on the names to use.
>
> As to the last option, Peter asked earlier whether a Part 3 code element
> is really warranted. The need for a Part 3 code element relates to the
> extant and growing body of literature (including websites) in Võro, with
> standard dictionaries which could be used in spell checkers and other
> tools. The existence of a Part 3 code element carries weight with such
> bodies as the Wikimedia Foundation Language Subcommittee (which considers
> such as a strong factor in making a decision to authorize new language
> subdomains: wikipedias, wiktionaries, etc.). Apart from all that, the
> requester has demonstrated that, in terms of intelligibility, Võro should
> be considered a separate language from Standard Estonian. I don't think 4
> is an appropriate response, but the 639-3 RA cannot act on the request
> independently without agreement from the JAC.
>
> You might want to search the archives and review messages from 2008-05-29
> and 06-03, as well as further back in the archives.
>
> A very useful reference for me has been:
> Pajusalu, Karl, Eva Velsker and Ervin Org. 1999. "On recent changes in
> South Estonian: dynamics in the formation of the inessive." International
> Journal of the Sociology of Language [issue title: Estonian
> Sociolinguistics],  139: 87-103.  Also the forward of the issue was quite
> helpful.
>
> See also  the Võro Institute's website: http://www.wi.ee/
> and the page about the language in English: http://www.wi.ee/?id=64
>
> I will post the request from Sulev Iva by September 10, and I would like
> the request then to be in alignment with a direction set by the JAC, if
> possible. (It will be posted even if I get no further feedback before that
> date.) Please let us take action.
>
> Thanks,
> Joan

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