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PCCTG1  May 2009

PCCTG1 May 2009

Subject:

Re: FW: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update

From:

"Fletcher, Peter" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 29 May 2009 10:33:24 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (325 lines)

An ALA meeting would be great, with as many of us who will be there. 

The draft report at ALA can be a progress report, but I still think we could have something ready--perhaps the general instructions that can be extrapolated to most languages ... 

Yes, I will finish what I have begun at least, so I can retain my "vision" of what might be. Not that my vision cannot be torn apart. It is possible what Shi has done is close to what I have, but I need to review it. 

We won't be able to get an official room at ALA at this point; it would have to be an informal gathering at a mutually agreed upon location, coffee shop, hotel lobby, etc., which I have done several times before with other task forces/committees. I think close to the conference, when we all know if we are going and what our schedules look like, I will ask if we might find a time when we can all meet. I am lucky this year that CCDA is only meeting on Monday, so I have more time on Saturday to meet. 

Have a great weekend.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of D. Brooking
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCTG1] FW: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update

Shi,

That's OK. I think these are pretty complicated and detailed issues, hard 
to discuss over email, I think.

And since a draft report of some kind is due at ALA Annual (that's still 
true, isn't it?), I can see where you want to figure out if there is 
something we can all do to help Peter out.

But I think from Peter's last message, he is content to do the first draft 
himself, and we should just wait and then be ready to review it when it is 
done and contribute then? Peter, is that right?

Also, if we want to meet at ALA Chicago (and it's not clear everyone will 
even be going to Chicago), finding a time when we are all free to meet 
will be hard. And I don't know anything about the logistics of getting an 
official room to meet somewhere. Or if we would just wing it and try to 
meet informally. (I haven't had really good luck getting real work done 
though in settings like restaurants or lobbies.)

So I am just wondering out loud about all this. (Not trying to be pushy 
either.) I honestly don't know if a meeting in Chicago was being planned 
or not. If not, it might be too late now to do so. Peter, what do you 
think?

************
Diana Brooking             (206) 685-0389
Cataloging Librarian       (206) 685-8782 fax
Suzzallo Library           [log in to unmask]
University of Washington
Box 352900
Seattle WA  98195-2900

On Thu, 28 May 2009, Deng, Shi wrote:

> 
> I want to apologize if my message below make me sound too pushy. That?s not what I intended. Seeing our discussion about different
> practices, I thought it would be easier if we have a draft built upon existing PCC  non-Latin documentations in hand. So we can map and
> mark the points we discussed on the draft and keep track of them. If it is too complicated, we can come back after comb through and agree
> or disagree on non-complicated points.
> 
>  
> 
> Best,
> 
> --Shi
> 
>  
> 
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Deng, Shi
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:23 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [PCCTG1] FW: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update
> 
>  
> 
> Peter,
> 
>  
> 
> I know that you said that you will put together the first draft. But I also see it?s very tough for you right now since you are also writing
> 13 evaluations. So I am wondering that if you wouldn?t mind to share whatever you have made progress so far, we can add and keep it going,
> and make notes about questions or practices mentioned along the discussion. Or if you have started yet, I can put one together simply by
> borrowing what?s on the CONSER appendices. It won?t be a good one, but something to get it rolling.
> 
>  
> 
> I totally agree with you that we have to put together a draft first, then we can discuss what we agree or disagree on the general
> guidelines/principles we put together, what practice among non-Latin language cataloging is unique and exceptional that should continue to
> keep or drop.  I also like Diana?s idea of having in-person meeting in Chicago during ALA, or schedule teleconference if in-person meeting
> is not possible for everyone. So we can discuss whatever draft we come up together.
> 
>  
> 
> Best,
> 
> --Shi
> 
>  
> 
> From: Fletcher, Peter [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:45 PM
> To: Joanna Dyla; Avetyan, Nora
> Cc: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; Julie Su; [log in to unmask]; Miller, Caroline; [log in to unmask];
> [log in to unmask]; Deng, Shi; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update
> 
>  
> 
> Yes, a really interesting case here. This is exactly why we need to come up with some rules where there are none at present.
> 
>  
> 
> We (the task force) will probably come to agree and give instruction that the cataloger only create truly parallel fields?that is parallel
> to the heading at hand, and in this case, a Russian (transliterated) heading. The scope of our task force is only the bibliographic
> record, but it is obviously helpful for catalogers to create whatever variants in the authority record that would assist the user, and in
> this case, 400s in both Russian and Ukrainian Cyrillic forms would be helpful.
> 
>  
> 
> I have been occupied for the last week and now must start writing 13 (good luck number) evaluations, so I will do my best to keep the
> discussion going and work on a prototype, beginning of a draft (or just concepts for the draft?concepts like the one above: use only truly
> parallel fields for a heading at hand) we can start to tear apart or agree on.
> 
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
>  
> 
> From: Joanna Dyla [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:13 PM
> To: Avetyan, Nora
> Cc: Fletcher, Peter; [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; Julie Su; [log in to unmask]; Miller, Caroline;
> [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update
> 
>  
> 
> I have been having many of the same observations and concerns that everyone else who just spoke.  But then, I come across a bibliographic
> records with parallel fields that raise so may questions. 
> 
> Please check the following OCLC record no: 39812309, Suspil?stvo, shcho transformui?e?t?si?a? : $b dosvid sot?s?iolohichnoho monitorynhu v Ukrai?ni / $c
> I?E?vhen Holovakha.
> This title is in Ukrainian (apologies to those of you who do not work with Cyrillic languages) and the record has parallel Cyrillic fields
> added.  However, there is a problem with the parallel 1xx.  This author's name has been established in Russian (that also, like Ukrainian,
> uses Cyrillic script) and the transliterated name in 1xx is in Russian per n79118651, ARN 350318.  Information transcribed in other fields
> in this record reflects the language of this item, which is Ukrainian.  So, while other parallel fields are given correctly in the
> original language and script: Ukrainian/Cyrillic, the parallel 1xx heading has been wrongly "de-transliterated" into Ukrainian, even
> though it is established and correctly given in 1xx in Russian. I hope that you can see on the OCLC record what I am trying to describe.
> The form of the name in the parallel 1xx is "double" wrong: it is wrong as a Cyrillic equivalent of the transliterated Russian form in 1xx
> (such form does not exist in any language) and also incorrect as an original Ukrainian name (see the usage in 245 $c). 
> 
> This is only one example but this problem is frequent enough not to be ignored. Such records in Latin transliteration would also not
> benefit from a programmatic (or by using a macro) de-transliteration.  It would be a real challenge to come up and agree on a solution to
> handle such situations should we recommend adding parallel fields in bibliographic records for headings under authority control.  In the
> above example, by adding a 4xx Cyrillic reference to the NAR, we would have recorded the usage in Ukrainian we found on the piece in hand
> and facilitate discovery for the users searching in Ukrainian/Cyrillic.
> 
> 
> Have a great weekend, everyone!  
> --Joanna
> 
> -- 
> 
> Joanna K. Dyla
> 
> Head, Metadata Development Unit
> 
> Metadata Department
> 
> Stanford University Libraries
> 
> 650-723-2529
> 
> [log in to unmask] 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avetyan, Nora wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
>  
> 
> I think the problem is that there are many records that do not have original scripts alongside with the transliterated form in the bib.
> records, thus OCLC auto-supply won?t be able to ?supply? the original script in the authority records. Also, in some cases, several ?ways? of
> transliteration forms are used, based on a person?s passionate conviction, and that creates difficulty to generate original scripts from the
> bib. records. So, I think Peter your concerns are still valid.
> 
> Nora
> 
>  
> 
> From: Fletcher, Peter
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:26 AM
> To: 'Joanna Dyla'
> Cc: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; Julie Su; [log in to unmask]; Miller, Caroline; [log in to unmask];
> [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; Avetyan, Nora; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update
> 
>  
> 
> Joanna, I think the discussion is within the scope, but I think we still need to add parallel fields to access points in bibliographic
> records for the foreseeable future since many authority records headings don?t have non-Latin 4xx. I?m certainly open to discussing this
> topic; perhaps I my concerns aren?t particularly valid now with the OCLC auto-supply of authority record 4xx (which were extracted from
> bibliographic record equivalent fields).
> 
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Joanna Dyla [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 1:34 PM
> To: Fletcher, Peter
> Cc: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; Julie Su; [log in to unmask]; Miller, Caroline; [log in to unmask];
> [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]; Avetyan, Nora; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: PCC Non Latin task force new member; timeline; update
> 
>  
> 
> It may be a bit too early to ask specific questions but I will be on vacation from May 10th until May 27th (not sure about Internet
> access), so let me ask now...
> 
> My questions are about a choice of fields in bibliographic records that get parallel non-Latin script data.  When CONSER practice and
> documentation on creating records with data in non-Latin scripts was introduced (2001/2003), an option of adding non-Latin script data to
> authority records did not exist.  The BIBCO Core Record Standards: 9. Guidelines for Multiple Character Sets document states: "Whether the
> non-Latin equivalents of headings are added as references to the authority record or not, they may be supplied in bibliographic records." 
> Do we really need to continue adding non-Latin parallel controlled fields in bib records as well as in references on name authority
> records (i.e., 4XX fields)?  Could we now rely on authority records with non-Latin references instead of on parallel control fields in
> bibliographic records for discovery through non-Latin script searching?  Is this topic/discussion within the scope of this TF?
> 
> --Joanna
> 
> -- 
> 
> Joanna K. Dyla
> 
> Head, Metadata Development Unit
> 
> Metadata Department
> 
> Stanford University Libraries
> 
> 650-723-2529
> 
> [log in to unmask] 
> 
> 
> Fletcher, Peter wrote:
> 
> PCC non-Latin task force,
> 
>  
> 
> We have a new member of the task force: Benjamin Abrahamse
> 
> Head, Serials Cataloging Section
> 
> Cataloging and Metadata Services
> 
> MIT Libraries
> 
>  
> 
> His area of expertise is Hebrew and Arabic, so along with Nora Avetyan (Persian) I think we have almost all languages represented. I think
> we are   light on Greek experience, but Robert mentioned that he has had some experience with Greek. I tend to think that issues that come
> up with that language would be similar to those that might arise with Cyrillic since the two are closely related.
> 
>  
> 
> Also, if you all agree, I think we could stick with the current timeline: draft report by ALA Annual; final report by December. The draft
> report could simply be a progress report with some kind of draft document (even incomplete if necessary), and I assume I would just be
> reporting to CONCER/BIBCO at Large during ALA Annual, with some kind of written report I would give to Joan Schuitema, chair of SCS at
> that time. Giving this draft report at this time is good in case the membership thinks we should alter our approach or not, so we don?t
> waste too much time going in a wrong direction.
> 
>  
> 
> Currently I am trying to go through the current CEG appendices (and the short PCC document) to see how we might consolidate/generalize
> certain instructions so they could apply to more than one script (as we already discussed), and to try to grasp how far we can go with
> that generalization before getting into specific script/language instruction. I should be able to come up with some kind of introductory
> draft (not the whole thing! Just the first part?) before too long that we can discuss, pull apart, add other ideas ? . This should be a good
> starting point.
> 
>  
> 
> Let me know if you have any ideas about this approach.
> 
>  
> 
> Best, Peter
> 
>   
> 
>  
> 
> Peter Fletcher
> 
> Cyrillic Catalog Librarian and Metadata Specialist
> 
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> Office: (310) 206-3927
> 
> Fax: (310) 794-9357
> 
> Cataloging & Metadata Center
> 
> 11020 Kinross Avenue
> 
> Box 957230
> 
> Los Angeles, CA 90095-7230
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

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