I don't know what it is that you don't believe. I'm not making up the
points in my comment which your response suggests. This is somewhat
rude though you might not intend it to be. Like everyone else, I've
struggled with the problems involved in playing old records. I would
add that it was not uncommon for arias to be transposed years ago.
Older opera companies often have transposed versions of arias. Very
early records sometimes are performances of these transposed versions.
The problem is compounded by the fact that very few singers sing
true sharps and flats. Melba seems to be one who does. An early 19th
century singing teacher who wrote a book on the subject, sorry, I
don't remember his name, taught singing from a keyboard with extra
keys for true sharps and flats! The business of pitch and early
records is complicated.
Malcolm Smith.
On Jun 24, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Steve Abrams wrote:
> I don't believe you. A little thought would show that this is
> impossible. The difference between 440 cycles and 465 cycles
> corresponds exactly to one semitone, in which case the music is
> transposed into a higher key.
>
> A great deal has been written about the history of the standards
> for pitch.
>
> I'm not going to get into this subject here except to make one
> point which is almost universally ignored. If a record does not
> sound right at 440 cycles, transfer engineers try it at 435.
> However, the pitch of 435 cycles is defined with respect to a
> temperature of 15 degrees centigrade, which is about 59
> Fahrenheit. The pitch of 440 cycles is defined with reference to a
> temperature of 20 degrees centigrade or 68 Fahrenheit. If you
> correct for the differences in temperature there isn't much
> difference in the standards. Also, pitch is inversely proportional
> to humidity.
>
> Another point worth making is that the pitch of an orchestra tends
> to rise as it warms up; for example, in the course of an Act of an
> opera. Transfer engineers tend to edit out this significant factor
> in issues of live recordings.
>
> If you look at Moran's determination of pitch for Victor electric
> recordings you will begin to get an idea of how much variation
> there is in practice.
>
> I suggest reading the chapter on pitch in Michael Henstock's
> biography of Fernando de Lucia.
>
> In general, a difference of half of one per cent is not
> noticeable. A difference of one per cent is tolerable. Two per
> cent is unacceptable. It changes the character of a voice,
> especially an operatic voice and is two thirds of the way to a
> quarter-tone. Strangely however, there are some records which are
> difficult to place in the correct key. For example, Ward Marston
> couldn't make up his mind about a group of Patti's recordings and
> transferred them both ways.
>
> Those of us who are interested in early vocals can outdo
> audiophiles in crankiness by matching both the temperature and
> humidity of the original recording venue.
>
> Steve Abrams
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Smith"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Recording Speed
>
>
>> In the late nineteenth century Adlina Patti threatened to go on
>> strike in London if tuning to 465 was continued at the Opera
>> house! Perhaps this was the first attempt to standardize pitch
>> for singers. She was the one singer there at the time who had the
>> clout to do this. Early records and accounts would suggest that
>> the effort only worked in London. There are references, if my
>> memory serves to 421 1/2 in France and I've also read complaints
>> that the orchestra in Vienna's opera house was especially sharp.
>> We've all witnessed the first violin in orchestras providing a
>> pitch for the tuning of the string section. Simply pitching early
>> recordings to 440 doesn't always work though it's a place to
>> start. The other problem is that early records often are not a
>> constant speed from beginning to end. I won't do more than
>> suggest it but the way organs were tuned brings up a whole
>> different aspect of this subject.
>>
>> Malcolm Smith.
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Smolian wrote:
>>
>>> Usually A=440. From 1916 on, certainly 440 in the US if newer
>>> musical instruments were used. The Navy recognized 440 that
>>> year, followed by the National Bureau of Standards then or the
>>> year following- I forget which. This may have been abetted by
>>> our impending entry into WWI. Years ago I gave an ARSC talk on
>>> this subject, not published.
>>>
>>> Thus all US military and reserve bands were to use 440 and
>>> replace instruments if they were incapable of or, perhaps,
>>> awkward at, tuning to this A. The "Charles Ives" effect of
>>> bands playing at different pitches (his "Three Places in New
>>> England") may have been limited to amateur and municipal bands
>>> without funds to reequip themselves.
>>>
>>> I'm convinced that this brought a bunch of older band
>>> instruments into the surplus market at much reduced prices.
>>> They may have gone to hock shops or been given to servants (in
>>> those days, many even lower class households had them.) I've
>>> long assumed the funky sound of some early jazz bands on record
>>> was a result of this technology transfer. I once mentioned this
>>> to Guther Schuller who disagreed, but I still think this aspect
>>> of musical history needs further exploring.
>>>
>>> In the early 1960s I talked with a fellow at Steinway who tuned
>>> the pianos at the Victor Studios. He told me that he worked on
>>> pianos used at the time of Caruso's recording sessions to
>>> A=440. Caruso died in August, 1921 so that gives a "no later
>>> than" date.
>>>
>>> Starr Piano Company didn't make Steinway-quality instruments but
>>> one assumes they took sufficient care with Gennetts to present
>>> their studio instruments in tune, seeing the records as, in part,
>>> a promotional tool. I have an H&D Gennett which advertises
>>> their pianos rather than records. I'm not sure at what pitch
>>> (from the pine) Wisconsin Chairs resonated to.
>>>
>>> Steve Smolian
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Chichester" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:25 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Recording Speed
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have one of those 'dog whistles'. 8>)
>>>> I guess I was referring to a reference tone, not a pilot tone.
>>>> Tuning A.
>>>> What was that frequency back in the 'teens?
>>>> Don Chichester
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 6/23/2009 4:16:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>> [log in to unmask] writes:
>>>>
>>>> From: Don Chichester <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Re: pilot tone. Is this what is recorded on some Euopean
>>>>> acoustics
>>>>> back in the early 'teens? If so, what is their pitch? Don
>>>>> Chichester
>>>>
>>>> A pilot tone is recorded continuously with the entire recording
>>>> from
>>>> beginning to end. It is sent into a resolver which steadys it
>>>> which
>>>> will restore the recording to original pitch and undo any
>>>> variations in
>>>> speed that might have happened during recording. It will be
>>>> either
>>>> filtered out of the sound recording, or is recorded 2-track
>>>> out- of-phase
>>>> and will disappear when played with a full-track mono head.
>>>> This allows
>>>> the tape to be synced with the film which is assumed to run at a
>>>> constant 24 frames per second. What you might be referring to
>>>> is a
>>>> reference tone like what I mentioned with the Sarasate records
>>>> where a
>>>> tuning A was played in a separate band at the end of the side.
>>>> I don't
>>>> know of any others -- maybe our European collectors do.
>>>> Unless you are
>>>> thinking about the high pitched chattering that sometimes is
>>>> recorded on
>>>> wax master discs that get too warm. Since these are heard
>>>> especially on
>>>> early Victor Orthophonics, they are often called "His Master's
>>>> Dogwhistle".
>>>>
>>>> Mike Biel [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 6/23/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>> [log in to unmask] writes:
>>>>
>>>> From: Doug Pomeroy <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Thanks Mike.
>>>>> I was most confused by George's reference to "the counter", which
>>>>> appeared with no explanation that I could find.
>>>>
>>>> It was hidden away a few sentences earlier, at the end of the
>>>> second
>>>> sentence of the part I'm reprinting below.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> > The frequency of the calibration track? It was calculated to be
>>>>> > 10 times the rpm of the turntable, in other words, at 78 rpm it
>>>>> > gave out 780 Hz, suitable for a frequency counter. In use of
>>>>> the
>>>>> > tape as a secondary master, the content could be de-chipmunked
>>>>> > by changing the speed of the tape recorder, and the tape
>>>>> rewound
>>>>> > to the calibration track, which was measured by the counter and
>>>>> > would give the rpm of the original record at the de-chipmunked
>>>>> speed.
>>>>
>>>>> It is much simpler than I thought. Doug
>>>>
>>>> I believe as turntables with internal speed counters became
>>>> more common,
>>>> George backed away from mass producing the little calibration
>>>> discs, but
>>>> now more than ever with digitization of recordings being made
>>>> without
>>>> documentation of rotational speed, this would be a quick and
>>>> easy way to
>>>> supply a notation of rotational speed in just one extra step.
>>>> If all
>>>> records had been made with a reference tone like the Seresate
>>>> records,
>>>> things would be so much easier!
>>>>
>>>> While we are on the subject of using known frequency tones to
>>>> determine
>>>> speed, the ARSC presentation of the Early Sounds project
>>>> explained that
>>>> Leon Scott's Phonautograph continuously recorded a tuning fork
>>>> tone
>>>> alongside of the sound, which now enables the constant speed
>>>> playback of
>>>> these hand-driven pre-tinfoil recordings. This is now called
>>>> the "Pilot
>>>> Tone" system, and is still used to synchronize sproketless-
>>>> analogue tape
>>>> sound with motion picture film. I don't think this has ever been
>>>> discussed, but not only did Leon Scott apparently invent sound
>>>> recording, he also apparently invented the Pilot Tone speed
>>>> resolution
>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Biel [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:23:26 -0700
>>>>> From: Michael Biel <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: (Fwd) [ARSCLIST] Fwd: Recording Speed
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand what George is saying partially because I've seen
>>>>> him
>>>>> do it and I am lucky enough to have one of his calibration discs.
>>>>> In case Doug and others still do not understand it, Doug's snip
>>>>> cut out the important info and left in material that has no
>>>>> meaning without the snipped part.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In 1982 George commissioned a 7-inch pressing made of a 450 Hz.
>>>>> tone cut at 45.0 RPM. That disc can be played at any RPM and a
>>>>> frequency
>>>>> counter will show a reading that is 10 times that RPM. (Play
>>>>> it at 73.7
>>>> RPM
>>>>> and it shows 737.0 Hz. 78.26 shows 782.6 Hz. Etc.) If you have a
>>>>> frequency counter handy, you can find what rotational speed you
>>>>> are
>>>> using. BUT,
>>>>> if you include a few seconds of that calibration disc played
>>>>> on the
>>>>> same turntable at the time of your transfer of the record you are
>>>>> working on, then later on that frequency can be read with a
>>>>> counter and
>>>> at any
>>>>> time you can establish the rotational speed you used. It's
>>>>> like an
>>>> audible
>>>>> strobe disc that has the unique ability to be recorded, and
>>>>> it is as
>>>>> accurate as your frequency counter is. Sure, you could use a
>>>>> normal
>>>>> test disc of, say, a 1000 Hz. tone, but George's disc is more
>>>>> directly
>>>>> readable without using math to have to determine percentage of
>>>>> 1000
>>>>> Hz. whatever tone you used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Biel [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>
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