LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  November 2009

ARSCLIST November 2009

Subject:

Re: Edison, etc., reply to Tom Fine

From:

"Prentice, Will" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:59:41 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (358 lines)

George referred to Peter Copeland's writing on this subject. Chapter 12
of his manual covers acoustic recording and many of the issues discussed
here in some detail:
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/sound/anaudio/analoguesoundrest
oration.pdf

Will

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of George Brock-Nannestad
Sent: 15 November 2009 19:03
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Edison, etc., reply to Tom Fine

From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad

Hello,

Tom Fine asked, and I thought that I ought to let Mike Biel answer
before I 
commented. However, I would also like to add some views.


> So Mike, are you and others saying that a horn recording system is a
one-way
> system? I thought the 
> point of a playback horn was, partly, to undo some of the frequency
response
> characteristics imposed 
> by the recording horn

----- that was not the case, certainly not in lateral recording. The 
recording horn was straight (conical) and the reproducing horn had a
curved 
flare. There would be no way that you could correct a lack of response
(an 
anti-resonance) at recording at a particular frequency by the
reproducing 
horn, because you would just obtain a noise-induced resonance on 
reproduction. However, there was a certain advantage of having similar 
resonances in recording and reproduction: you would stagger the
resonances 
and get both a broader sound (still not correct) and less wear. That, at

least, was the philosopy of Victor when they recorded at 76 rpm and 
reproduced at 78.

----- Edison had a much larger influence on both recording and
reproduction; 
some of his horns at recording were very unusual, and his transfer
process 
between disc and cylinder was acoustical - air-borne.

, like how an electronic disk recording system uses an
> EQ curve to record and 
> the reverse curve to play back. So, playing back an Edison cylinder
with no
> playback EQ -- to use 
> one example -- is not the listening experience intended, is it? So
then you
> have to get into EQ "by 
> ear" by the electronic-playback engineer.

----- I would accept Mike's view that not even the result obtained may 
necessarily have been the intended listening experience. But that is
what 
they sold and staked their fortune on.

> 
> So how is that any different, at base, from selecting an appropriate
horn,
> playing back acoustically 
> in a benign acoustic environment and recording the playback with a
> properly-placed accurate mic (ie 
> a small-diaphram instrumentation mic or like -- not an obviously
colored mic
> like a U-47)?
> 
> I'm not advocating one transfer method or another, I'm just curious
why
> there's this hostility 
> toward acoustic transfers -- of material that was recorded
acoustically to
> begin with???

----- I only get hostile when somebody claims a particular procedure to 
provide the TRUTH. And that is the basis for all ethical behaviour when 
concerned with artefacts: lying is prohibited, everything else is
acceptable 
if you state the conditions. 

Kind regards,


George


> 
> -- Tom Fine
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Biel" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Edison, etc., formerly Polk Miller
> 
> 
> This discussion sounds very similar to what happened at ARSC back in
the
> 80s when Bill Storm (as discussed by George) discussed acoustical
> playback in a presentation.  The mob (and it WAS a mob!) was about to
> storm the stage (no pun intended) with torches and pitchforks when I
> explained that he was not advocating ARCHIVING the recordings for
> preservation this way, only using it as reference.  But it does seem
> from his posting that John Eberle IS advocating archiving and
> distributing recordings played acoustically, much like the Nimbus
> Nitwits and their Crazy Count did with their Prima Voce series back in
> the early days of CDs.
> 
> Let me stress once more, playing a record on an acoustical player is
not
> playing the record it is playing THE MACHINE.  As Steve said, each
> acoustical horn introduces resonances on the sound, and thus each
> machine is placing its "stamp" on the sound of every record played on
> it.  It is NOT true that "you get to hear the true sound quality of
the
> cylinder as the Edison recording staff intended it to be."  You get to
> hear it the way they were able to play it back on the primitive
> equipment they had at that time, not the IDEAL equipment that would
have
> been preferable EVEN THEN.  To think they WANTED the recordings to
sound
> that way is absurd.  They did the best they could under the
constraints
> of their nearly deaf boss.  When electrical recording was available
they
> WANTED to use it.  When electrical reproduction was available they
> WANTED to use it.  They (meaning Theodore Edison and to a certain
> extent, Charles Edison) had to practically sneak around The Old Man's
> back to improve their sound.  It is an insult to the Edison recording
> staff to say that playing a cylinder acoustically "is how they
intended
> it to be".
> 
> And let me again state that I am not against playing acoustical
records
> acoustically for the fun of it or to experience what it was like.
Just
> like it is fun once in a while to ride around in a Model T Ford or
some
> other ancient car, but it is not the IDEAL way to travel.
> 
> 
> Mike Biel  [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Edison, etc., formerly Polk Miller
> From: Steven Smolian <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Sat, November 14, 2009 5:50 pm
> To: [log in to unmask]
> 
> In recent years I have been privately advocating that each sound
archive
> and
> other learning venues present a program called "How Our Ancestors
Heard
> Recordings."
> 
> It would sequentially play back the same piece of music, "Stars and
> Stripes"
> or an earlier piece for which recordings exist in all commercial
media.
> 
> These would be reproduced through the actual machines for which they
> were
> intended rather than microphone recordings from them and would cover
the
> 
> time spectrum then to now.
> 
> Using microphones to record what is played back on a phonograph,
> graphophone, etc., introduces a further group of variables.
> 
> Part of the presentation would include playing electrical recordings
on
> acoustical machines, mono through stereo speakers, etc. to give an
> inverse
> perspective.
> 
> This is a different process than that to which I was objecting in my
> earlier
> message. It brings into play the sound of each instrument in a real
> acoustical setting which is far truer to the ear of the listener in
the
> room
> than what a microphone can presently create and mimic.
> 
> Steve Smolian
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "George Brock-Nannestad" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Polk Miller
> 
> 
> > From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Steven Smolian wrote:
> >
> >
> >> This approach is the shearest nonsense! Horns introduced distortion
at
> >> the
> >> recording end and also at the playback end. This distortion varied
from
> >> one
> >> horn desingn to another.
> >
> > ----- I am sorry, Steven, but I do think that there is room and even
a
> > need
> > for this kind of re-recording. It is a part of sound recording and
> > reproduction history. I do not think we can teach our ears to
forget,
> but
> > we
> > can at least be conscious of our ears and try to go back to the
times
> when
> > this type of sound was amazing. Edison is not a good example for the
> > variability of the playback end, because he was the only recording
> company
> > that sold a complete system, i.e. controlled everything. He may have
> been
> > idiosyncratic, and obviously we also learn about his preconceived
views
> > when
> > listening to his products.
> >
> >>
> >> It may sound 'beetter" to the rerecording engineer but is a purely
> >> subjective opinion.
> >
> > ----- I do not think it sounds "better" to anybody, but certainly
more
> > representative of the sound heard in the parlor than a good
> interpretative
> > transfer that optimises the access to the sound as it was in the
> recording
> > studio. A preservation transfer sounds horrible, but it is extremely
> > useful,
> > because it may be used for any purpose.
> >
> >>
> >> It amazes me that so much is made of presumed audio purity based on
the
> >> dictatorial opinions of a deaf listener.
> >
> > ----- I do not hope that it is the purity in an absolute sense that
> these
> > transfers aim for. But it is rather amazing how good these
"primitive"
> > machines were. And the secret is, they were not primitive at all,
but
> > finely
> > honed to the criteria they set.
> >
> > Bill Storm, formerly of the Belfer Laboratory, which was essentially
> > founded
> > by Walter Welch, was also a proponent of the audio history approach.
I
> > violently opposed it as a preservation format, you may see my
discussion
> > by
> > downloading ARSCJv20n2p156-161 from the ARSC website.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "John Eberle" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Polk Miller
> >>
> >>
> >> > We are collectors of Edison Phonograph antiquities here at
Americana
> CD
> >> > Mastering . In our collection ,
> >> > we have Blue Amberol cylinder records of two Polk Miller songs
> >> > recorded
> >> > in November 1909 for Edison's clientele:
> >> >
> >> > Blue Amberol #2176 "The Laughing Song " and
> >> > #2175 " The Bonnie Blue Flag "
> >> >
> >> > We currently have an mp3 of the Bonnie Blue Flag as played on our
> >> Edison
> >> > Concert Amberola Model A1 and recorded to Ampex GrandMaster 456
then
> >> > transferred to aif file on a Masterlink at 48khz/24 bit
resolution .
> >> > This
> >> > way you
> >> > get to hear the true sound quality of the cylinder as the Edison
> >> > recording
> >> > staff intended it to be ; and as it was heard and enjoyed by the
> >> > thousands
> >> > of Edison customers who purchased it 90 years ago !
> >> >
> > ...........
> >
> >
> > P.S. from time to time my mails to the list are not "taken". I
wonder if
> > there is some online filtering going on. Just to test the system I
> > recently
> > repeated my message with some variations more than 20 times over a
> couple
> > of
> > days, but no luck at all. And the loss is definitely with that
> particular
> > reader who may suddenly read a piece of information he or she did
not
> know
> > about. George
> >

**************************************************************************
 
Experience the British Library online at http://www.bl.uk/
 
The British Library’s new interactive Annual Report and Accounts 2008/09 : http://www.bl.uk/knowledge
 
Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. http://www.bl.uk/adoptabook
 
The Library's St Pancras site is WiFi - enabled
 
*************************************************************************
 
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the mailto:[log in to unmask] : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent.
 
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
 
*************************************************************************
 

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager