Mengelberg LP Questions from Frank Forman
Below is a listing of my Mengelberg LPs. I am most interested in knowing
whether there may be different takes on some of the U.S.
Capitol/Telefunken LPs than on the German Telefunkens. Is anyone
interested in getting the discs and making detailed comparisions?
I also want to know which of the items below have not appeared on
compact disc. If so, I would like to make .wav and/or .mp3 copies of them.
I have long-standing questions otherwise:
1. Should I rely on the dates on the 10-CD Q-disc issue of (mainly) live
2. What about the various issues of the live Tchaikovsky Fifth? I got
the late Allen Mackler to place the 78s for the 1928 Columbia recording
on one turntable and the first reissue, on a Bruno Walter Society LP,
equalize the speeds. As suspected, the BWS issue indeed used the
Columbia to fill in the missing several seconds. In other words, the
recordings were in synchonization, until they diverged. Some fakes,
however, have deliberately fiddled with the speed so that this test is
not foolproof. Even audience noise has been added. (This is from a
discussion of some Furtwa"ngler issues in the ARSC Journal. I am utterly
baffled by this, since almost no money is involved!) Jim North wrote
about these Fifths in several issues of fanfare, finding that different
passages were dropped from different issues. Is the Q-disc now the
entire live performance?
3. What about the various issues of the Beethoven Ninth, besides the one
widely issued and reissued by Philips? I have read about mixes here also.
4. Which reissued of the Telefunken Tchaikovsky Sixth mixed the 1937 and
5. A 1942 remake of the 1937 Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 (Old No. 6)
appeared inadvertently on a Telefunken CD. But has the studio recording
of the Beethoven Second ever surfaced?
6. And, of course, a rundown on the comparative sound of all such issues.
7. Alternate takes:
a. Two were issued of the first side of the NYPhil Egmont Overture. Has
the first take ever been reissued?
b. Two takes of the MSND Scherzo. Both were issued on the Pearl 6-CD
collection of his Columbias.
c. An unissued take of Tchaikovski's Serenade Waltz, furnished by me for
the Pearl issue, is now available to the public.
d. An unissued acoustic of the Prelude on the Dutch National Anthem came
out in Biddlulph WHL 025-6.
e. That set also had a Strauss Heldenleben consisting of different
takes, in each case, of the issued one.
In the listing below, (Cxx) is the price given in Canfield's Guide,
which Dave Canfield sold at that price, in US dollars. (I have a college
willing to accept 78s. If I donate my Mengelberg LPs to it, I'll claim
the Canfield price and will get back a third of the amount from my
taxes. Dealers will pay trivial amounts for all these items. However, I
also very much want to help my fellow collectors fill in holes in their
collections and also want to preserve Mengelberg recordings that
otherwise are not available in .wav and/or .mp3, hoping to find a server
for them, though perhaps not in the U.S. until the copyright laws are
changed or reinterpreted by the courts. (I much prefer the former.)
8. Conrad Hansen wrote Ronald Klett that immediately after laying down
the Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1 for 78s in the Telefunken studio, they
played it again without interruption on magnetic tape. It was issued by
the Victor de Sabata Society of Japan as an LP, M 1003. Hansen had a
copy. Does anyone else?
9. What films can be put onto CDs or .mp3s?
10. Exactly what has not appeared on compact disc?
11. All surviving parts of the 1924 electrics from a live broadcast have
been issued by Pristine Audio, along with what survives of the 1938 BBC
12. I think I have a first movement of the Beethoven Violin Concerto,
with Louis Zimmermann, that has not appeared anywhere else. I also have
the Zimmermann recording that appeared on 78s and had falsely stated to
have been conducted by Mengelberg.
13. There are a few other known or suspected misattributions, some of
which are listed below. Another is a Ravel Left-Hand Concerto, played by
Paul Wittgenstein, but in fact recorded by Bruno Walter. There are
others I have forgotten. It is important to list these misattributions,
let some future enthusiast claim a fresh discovery. Of course, a
misattribution may turn out to have been real after all!
14. Is anyone working on a full, formal Mengelberg varorium discography?
I have a great many, starting with Hardie's. A varorium discography
would note which each one contains, what there probable errors are, and
what questions remain. I have somewhat kept track of more specific
recording dates as they have appeared on various CD issues and among the
Now for my holdings:
All with the Amesterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, unless otherwise specified.
I tentatively regard the dates Q-disc 97016 (10 CDs + DVD) gives for the
live performances as definitive.
I. Not under Federal Copyright Protection
CAL 337 (C6):
Strauss: A Hero's Life. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra (1928
CAL 347 (C11):
J.C. Bach: Sinfonia, Op. 18, No. 2
Saint-Saens: Spinning Wheel
Mozart: Magic Flute Over.
Beethoven: Egmont Over.
Humperdinck: Hansel and Gretel Over.
All are NYP recordings (not in order). (I NO LONGER HAVE THIS DISC.)
L 8127 (10") (C12): Berlioz: Damnation of Faust (3 exc.) and Tchaikovsky
P 8002 (C20): Beethoven: Symphony 3
P 8013 (C6): Strauss: A Hero's Life (1941 recording) (2 copies)
P 8023 (C19): Franck: Symphony
P 8037 (C11): Dopper: Gothic Chaconnne (with Keilberth, German
Philharmonic Orchestra of Prague: Pfitzner: Palestrina: Three Preludes)
P 8040 (C38): Schubert: Symphony 7 (New No. 9) in C, ("Great")
P 8053 (C22): Tchaikovsky: Symphony 5, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
P 8060 (C8): Tchaikovsky: Serenade in C, Op. 48 (with Hans von Benda,
Berlin Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra: Davorak: Serenade in E, Op. 22)
P 8070 (C48): Brahms: Symphony 2
P 8078 (C6): Brahms: Tragic Over.; (Side B) Schubert: Rosamunde Over.;
Beethoven: Creatures of Prometheus: Overture and Finale (Allegretto);
Beethoven: Ruins of Athens: Turkish March. The label on side A, after
BRAHMS; TRAGIC OVERTURE, Op. 81 has SCHUBERT SONGS; VIENNA CHOIR BOYS;
under the direction of; Ferdinand Grossman; R. Picitti, Piano. There is
nothing on the disc itself but the Tragic Over.
P 8079 (C12): Beethoven: Symphonies 1 and 8
P 8097 (C12): Tchaikovsky: Concerto No. 1, Conrad Hansen, Berlin
Philharmonic Orchestra. (I DO NOT OWN THIS.)
P 8100 (C5): Strauss: Death and Transfiguration (with Clemens Krauss,
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra: Strauss: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks)
P 8103 (C27): Tchaikovsky: Symphony 6 (presumably the 1941 recording)
P 8110 (C20): Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 (Old No. 6) (presumably the 1937
Fontana (Japanese Philips):
Fontana FCM 20 (C9): Franck: Symphony and Strauss: Don Juan (live,
Hardie dates 1940.10.3 and 1940.12.12)
Fontana SFON 10599 (C12) Beethoven: Symphony 5 (Old No. 6) and Schubert:
Symphony 8 (live, Hardie dates 1940.4.18 and 1941.7.27)
C. Mercury (10")
MG 15000 (C10): Strauss: Don Juan and Tchaikovsky: 1812 Over. (2 copies)
D. MRF (label of Mauro R. Fuguette)
MRF 74 (three LPs) (no booklet) (C60):
Mahler: Lieder einen fahrenden Gesellen. Hermann Schey, baritone, live
1940. Hardie says 1939.11.9. Q-disc gives 1939.11.23.
Franck: Symphonic Variations. Walter Gieseking. Live 1940.10.31. Hardie
Ravel: Daphne and Chloe Suite No. 2. Live, 1938.10.6. Hardie and Q-disc
agree with date.
Ro"ntgen: Old Dutch Dances. Hardie gives 1940.11.10. Allen Mackler says
it is this live performance, rather than the Telefunken studio recording.
Mahler: Symphony 5: Adagietto. From Decca 25011 (mx. XXB 7492/3).
Hardie's date is 1926 May.
Kodaly: Hary Janos Suite, live 1940.12.12. Hardie and Q-disc agree on date.
Wagenaar: The Taming of the Shrew Over. Hardie says 1940.10.10 live.
Q-disc agrees on date.
Kodaly: Peacock Variations, live 1939.11.23 (world premiere). Hardie and
Q-disc agree on date.
St. Algedonde: Wilhelmus von Nassauen (Netherlands anthem). Telefunken A
2899, side 1, mx 23717-1, recorded 1938.10.30. Hardie records a live
performance from 1936.12.20.
Valerius: Niederlandisches Dankgebet (Netherlands Prayer of Thanks:
verses 2 and 3 from Telebunken A 2899, side 2 (mx. 23718)
Rachmaninoff: Concerto 2, Walter Gieseking, live 1940.10.31. Hardie
agrees on date.
Schumann: Piano Concerto, Emil von Sauer, live 1940.10.10. Hardie agrees
E. Opus Records
MLG 78(C20): Schumann: Piano Concerto, Emil von Sauer. Live 1940.10.10
(with Emil von Sauer playing Schumann: Carnival, 1923 (acoustic)
W 09907L (C40): Brahms: Symphony 1, live 1940.10.13 (original issue)
PHM 500041 (C5): Schubert: Symphony No. 9 (Old No. 7), live 1940.12.19
Rococo 2066 (Canada) (all live) (C12):
Strauss: Don Juan. Hardie date 1940.12.12.
Grieg: Peer Gynt Suite 2. Hardie and Q-disc give 1943.4.15
Ravel: Daphnis and Chloe Suite 2. Hardie and Q-disc give 1938.10.6.
II. Under Federal copyright protection
Discocorp (formerly the Bruno Walter Society)
Curtain Call 234 (5) (C57):
Beethoven: Sym. 3. 1943.5.6. So also Hardie. Date much disputed. Some
Beethoven: EgO. 1943.4.29. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
Brahms: Violin Concerto. Herman Krebbers. 1943.4.13. Hardie and Q-disc
agree with date.
Wagner: Tannha"user Over. 1940.10.27. Hardie agrees, but Q-disc gives
Berlioz: Damnation of Faust: Dance of the Sprites, Dance of the Sylphs,
Hungarian March. 1943.3.21. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
Bach: Cantata 202 (Wedding). To van der Sluys, soprano. 1939.4.17.
Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
Bach: Suite 2 in b for two flutes. 1939.4.17. Hardie agrees with date.
Weber: ObOv. 1940.10.13. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
Weber: Oberon: Ocean, Thou Mighty Monster! Ruth Horne, soprano.
1943.3.18. Hardie agrees with date.
Mozart: Flute Concerto in D, K. 314. Hubert Barwahser. unknown date.
Hardie has no date either. Q-disc gives 1942.5.3.
Mozart: Concerto 19. Willem Andriessen. 1940.10.13. Hardie has no date.
Mozart: Exaltate, jubilate. Ria Ginster, soprano. unknown date. Hardie
has none either.
Dvorak: Violin Conerto. Maria Neuss. 1943.3.25. Hardie agrees.
Rachmaninoff: Concerto 2. Walter Gieseking, piano. 1940.10.31. Hardie
IGI 358 (C20):
Franck: Symphonic Variations. Walter Gieseking, piano. Live 1940.10.31.
Rachmaninoff: Concerto 3. Walter Gieseking, piano. Live 1940.3.28.
Past Masters (all live)
PM 13 (C23):
Dvorak: Cello Concerto. Maurice Gendron, The Paris Radio Orchestra.
1944.1.16. This is dubious.
Pfitzner: Cello Concerto 2 i G, Op. 42. Gaspar Cassado. 1940.12.12.
PM 16 (C16):
Dopper: Symphony 7 (Auider Zee). 1940.12.8. Hardie agrees.
Voormolen: Sinfonia. 1940.12.12. Hardie agrees.
III. Under European copyright protection
Archive Documents (label of Michael G. Thomas). Most of these were
reissued on compact discs.
AD 103/4 (two LPs) (C103):
Mozart: Magic Flute Over. Live late 1943 or early 1944. Q-disc gives
Wagner: T&I: P&L. Live 1943.3.18, according to Thomas, in correspondence
with James H. North. Authenticity questioned by Klett and others.
Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. Hermann Schey, baritone. Live
1939.11.9. Q-disc gives 1939.11.23.
Handel: Messiah: Hallelujah chorus. Live 1938 May. Klett refines to
Bach: Cantata 57. Jo Vincent, soprano, and Max Kloos, baritone. Live
Schubert-Cassado: Arpeggione Sonata. Gaspar Cassado, cello. Live
1940.13.13 (sic). Hardie gives 1940.12.12.
AD 105/6 (two LPs) (C105):
Liszt: Hungarian Fantasia. Wilhelm Backhaus, Radio Breslau Orchestra.
Live. Klett quoted me in his newsletter, adding to his suspicions of
authenticity. I stated that the recording was not good enough for either
the conductor or the pianist.
Handel: Alcina Suite. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
Beethoven: Symphony 1. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
Beethoven: Concerto 5. Cor De Groot. Live 1942.5.9. Hardie agrees on
date. This has missing bars and runs on 34:50. The Q-disc version, with
the same date, is complete and runs 39:18.
Schelling: A Victory Ball. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra.
Victor studio recording.
Tchaikovsky: Marche Slav. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra.
Brunswick studio recording.