LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


[email protected]


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  January 2010

ARSCLIST January 2010

Subject:

Re: DAT ripping

From:

Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:17:51 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (254 lines)

Hi Scott:

Interesting thing about the Sony F1 format ... it's relatively robust, in my experience. I have a 
pile of F1 tapes that were made in the 80's and they all played perfectly last time they got played 
a couple years ago (they were transferred to DAW at that time). Most are on Betamax tapes and I'm 
playing them back on an _OLD_ Sony portable machine (the one that matched the original F1 unit). I 
was shocked when I started playing them. All I could figure is, much lower data-pack to tape vs. 
something like DAT. And, Betamax tapes seem less sensitive to non-violent dropping and jarring 
compared to say U-Matic tapes. With the few old VHS tapes I have that were made with F1 equipment, 
they work fine as long as the playback machine either has working auto-tracking-adjust or has a 
tracking adjust control.

I still use the format to time-shift radio programs (mainly NPR). Turn on tuner, turn on F1 
converter, set VCR timer, let it do its thing. Play back at the time of my choosing.

The last-generation F1 (EIAJ format) converter box even had a SPDIF output.

One other F1 story. I was told by a former Polygram employee that most of those Japan Polygram LP 
reissues of Emarcy/Mercury and Verve jazz albums were made from F1 tapes dubbed from the master 
tapes at Polygram's US facility, so the master tapes didn't have to travel overseas. Those LPs sound 
darn good in most cases. I think the first-generation Japanese CD's of those albums were also made 
from F1 tapes.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott D. Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT ripping


> Tom:
>
> While DAT wasn't lossy per se (at least in the recorded bitstream), the reality was that, 
> depending on the tape and the machine, there could be a significant amount of error concealment 
> taking place (or worse issues).
>
> I ate a lot of crow once when I foolishly used DAT on a day of pickup work on a picture, only to 
> find that there was a problem with the tape when they tried to play it in post. We never did 
> determine whether it was the tape or the machine that was at fault, but it wasn't pretty...
>
> When using DAT for production work, we had more than a few occasions where there were problems 
> with either the tape, or the shell, (or both) which would cause severe issues when trying to 
> reproduce them. My guess is that I've probably re-shelled at least a dozen tapes during that 
> period to make them playable (and this was using high-end Sony 7000 series machines).
>
> All in all, I'm glad to see 'em go. Now, how about the Sony F1 format?!
>
> --Scott
>
>
> Tom Fine wrote:
>> Hi Scott:
>>
>> My take on DAT is, transfer what you got and be out of the format. But in its time, it wasn't 
>> lossy and it even offered (slightly) better resolution than a CD master. Also, Sony had "Super 
>> Bit Mapping" (20-bit A-D conversion down-converted to 16-bit storage) available even on lower-end 
>> machines.
>>
>> All in all, sound quality wise, DAT was superior to MD and other lossy-encoded media.
>>
>> I bet most of us here would have killed for one of these little $300 flash recorders when we 
>> bought our first $1000+ DAT recorder. You sound-for-picture guys would have mass-killed for one 
>> of these high-end many-tracks flash recorders.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott D. Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT ripping
>>
>>
>> As Tom nicely points out in his summary of the life of the DAT, it
>> indeed was never meant to be a professional format.
>>
>> After Sony realized their misstep in the market, they hurriedly tried
>> to figure out how to re-coup their development costs. The thinking
>> being: Hey-if consumers won't use it, maybe we can dump it on the pros!
>>
>> Subsequent to my experience using DAT recorders to record sync sound
>> for a feature film ("The Package")in 1988, I sat on a panel discussion
>> at the New York AES show, discussing the pros and cons of the format
>> for pro use.
>>
>> At that meeting, I distinctly recall pointing out the numerous
>> shortfalls of the format for pro users, and was nearly booed off the
>> stage by a contingent  who thought it was the greatest thing to come
>> around since the introduction of the CD. Hey, perfect sound, right?
>>
>> Funny-I haven't really heard too much from that crowd lately...
>>
>> --Scott D. Smith
>>
>> Chicago Audio Works, Inc.
>>
>> Quoting Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>>> When DAT first came out, the original press on it was "here's a
>>> cassette-like home medium for the digital age." But the copy-protection
>>> scheme made it impossible to use it as many people were using cassettes
>>> at that point (tape-to-tape copies), duplication of DATs was a costly
>>> endeavor since they can't be run off on a mass-duper like cassettes.
>>> Remember that at that time period -- the Walkman era -- cassettes were
>>> the primary mass medium for music in the US, having passed LP numbers
>>> in the late 80's. So a cassette replacement needed to have a major
>>> pre-recorded component. The record companies had invested or were
>>> investing billions in CD plants, that's what they wanted to be the
>>> _ONLY_ consumer mass-medium. So it was another case of clever hardware
>>> engineering for a market that wouldn't buy in quantity. BUT, DAT was
>>> immediately and enthusiastically embraced by the portable-recording
>>> market, specifically higher-end radio recording, recording of events at
>>> colleges and other venues, and the Grateful Dead taping army, among
>>> other audiences. So, quickly, quantities of recorded DAT tapes started
>>> piling up in various organized and non-organized archives. Also at that
>>> time, recording-industry people realized DAT was a good way to make a
>>> listening/proof copy off the same digital buss feeding the
>>> U-Matic-based mastering system. After all, any producer or record
>>> company exec could have a DAT machine in their home or office, but few
>>> to none could have a 1630 playback system. So more DAT tapes started
>>> piling up. Then, lower-end studios and self-recording folks adopted DAT
>>> due to convenience and cost. Many more small studios than we'd like to
>>> think were mastering to DAT throughout the 90's and even into this
>>> decade. Also the commercial/industrial sound production business. And
>>> sound-for-picture.
>>>
>>> So, yes, never intended for the professional uses which became its market.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kendall"
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT ripping
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, DAT was never intended as a professional medium   at all, but a domestic one. 
>>>> The anti-copying furore in the US which  led to SCMS scuppered that, so the Japanese had to 
>>>> sell it as an  F1  replacement.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, though - those first generation machines can be very   tolerant of marginal tapes. 
>>>> Whether this is a mechanical thing or   more generous interpolation, I wouldn't know. I also 
>>>> harbour   memories of a particular DAT which refused to play at all on any   machine except a 
>>>> Fostex D20 - and that had the error light   continuously on! The audio, however, was quite OK.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul G Turney" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT ripping
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Further to this, you will find that some mechanisms perform better   than others, the PCM 2500 
>>>> for example will play tapes that the 7000  series won't.
>>>> And often more plays will yeild a better file, but DAT was always   meant to be an editing 
>>>> medium, not long term storage.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Turney
>>>> Sirensound Digital Audio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Shai Drori [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 09:14 AM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT ripping
>>>>
>>>> Okay, that I understand, but I am thinking about correctable   errors. We are then assuming 
>>>> that both systems will correct the   errors the same way since both use the schemes 
>>>> implemented. How do   we know which system has fewer errors over the other? My experience  with 
>>>> rotary head systems is that sometimes second or third reading  yielded better results, I think 
>>>> due to "cleaning" actions of the   previous playing. Maybe we should compare five readings of 
>>>> the same cassette?ShaiTed Kendall wrote:> In my view, yes.>> Consider - you  have two data 
>>>> files. One is a text document (for the > sake of   argument). The other is a digital audio 
>>>> file. Both have errors  > in  the storage medium. This is inevitable, so we devise error > 
>>>> correction strategies (redundancy, check codes, etc). These allow   us > to correct errors 
>>>> completely and accurately.>> Suppose now   that there is an error in the storage medium which 
>>>> is too > large   to be corrected. This will cause an obvious error in the text >   file, which 
>>>> is unaceptable, so the system does not allow for it and
>>>> > declares the file corrupt. The audio file, however, can be
>>>> rendered > inoffensive by interpolation, and this is implemented in  the DAT audio > format. If 
>>>> we retrieve DAT audio in a system which  does not admit of > interpolation, we therefore know 
>>>> that the data  are accurate, as any > uncorrectable errors are recorded as   such.>>>> -----  
>>>> Original Message ----- From: "Shai Drori" > To: >   Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:37 AM> 
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST]   DAT ripping>>>> My own experience with dat is that almost all tapes 
>>>> have some form of >> errors on them. I think the idea in dds is   that errors are better >> 
>>>> fixed than dat machines. There were many   machines that came off >> assembly lines not at 
>>>> spec, thus making   the tape not a standard tape. >> Some machines are better at coping  with 
>>>> these (my experience with >> Sony is better than tascam for   example, but I suspect this is 
>>>> highly  >> subjective). All in all,   I think the DAT format was the word digital >> format I 
>>>> have ever come across.>> Also' checking two files one against the other will   not necessarily 
>>>>  >> prove one format better than the other. If you   get some audio, how >> can you be sure one 
>>>> stream is correct and   the other is corrupt? >> Either the dat or dds stream could be 
>>>> better, or am I missing >> something in the methodology?>> Shai>>>>  Tom Fine wrote:>>> I'm 
>>>> happy to do a SPDIF to hard drive transfer   and then exchange
>>>>>>> tapes with someone using a PC-drive transfer system so we can do the >>>
>>>> comparison Richard mentions.>>>>>> Please ping me off-list if you   have a working PC-drive 
>>>> transfer  >>> chain and want to exchange   DATs and computer files.>>>>>> -- Tom 
>>>> Fine>>>>>> -----  Original   Message ----- From: "Richard L. Hess" >>> >>> To: >>> Sent: 
>>>> Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:14 PM>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT   ripping>>>>>>>>>> Hi, 
>>>> Tom,>>>>>>>> After I saw your post and   re-read Jim's post, I think I understand >>>> where he 
>>>> is coming   from.>>>>>>>> What we _should_ be able to do is take the DDS ripped  file and an 
>>>>  >>>> AES/SPDIF'd copy of the DAT from an audio DAT   machine, align the >>>> starts, invert the 
>>>> phase of one, and get   dither or silence.>>>>>>>> In both instances, we're pulling numbers 
>>>> off the tapes (although >>>> the basest representation of the   numbers is analog on the tape, 
>>>> the >>>> processing in both instances interprets these analog signals as >>>> either ones or 
>>>> zeros).>>>>>>>> I would not, without doing the tests that Jim is   talking about, be >>>> 
>>>> 100.0000% confident that the two files are   identical.>>>>>>>> I think that the DDS reading 
>>>> could be "better"   than the audio DAT >>>> reading as there is no error concealment   stage in 
>>>> a data recorder, >>>> so if you grabbed all the bits via   the DDS route, you could be sure 
>>>>  >>>> that they were correct.>>>>>>>> These are all subtle differences and are probably   not as 
>>>> large as >>>> the "Interstitial Errors" that Chris Lacinak   is talking about here:>>>> 
>>>> http://www.avpreserve.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Digital_Audio_Interstitial_Errors.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would expect some burst differences between the two methods,
>>>> and >>>> those bursts would be where the audio DAT's error concealment
>>>>>>>> kicked in. Other than that, they should be identical, presuming
>>>> you >>>> haven't introduced an interstitial error in one copy or   the other.>>>>>>>> I'm glad 
>>>> to see Chris offering to help. I am   interested in this. I >>>> would also like to know who is 
>>>> set up   with the DDS Mass Ingest of >>>> DATs as I am sometimes asked who   can do large DAT 
>>>> collections. At >>>> the moment, I am not   interested in doing any because of anticipated >>>> 
>>>> remaining   headlife on my machines, the growing lack of parts for >>>> DAT   machines, the 
>>>> need to transfer my own DAT collection first, and
>>>> >>>> the analog work that I have piling up.>>>>>>>> Cheers,>>>>>>>>
>>>>  Richard>>>>>>>> At 04:27 PM 2010-01-20, Tom Fine wrote:>>>>> Hi   Jim:>>>>>>>>>> How could the 
>>>> data be "better" than a direct-digital  out from a  >>>>> properly-working player (ie no head 
>>>> problems or   mechanical >>>>> issues)? I thought the main advantage of the   computer-drive 
>>>> method >>>>> was to save time. Is there more to   it?>>>>>>>>>> --  Tom Fine>>>>>>>>>> -----  
>>>> Original Message -----   From: "Jim Sam" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 
>>>> 12:45 PM>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DAT ripping>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   All,>>>>>>>>>>>> First, 
>>>> Dave, that information is very   helpful.>>>>>>>>>>>> That said, I didn't ask because I'm 
>>>> worried about the theory. I >>>>>> was asking>>>>>> for a collaborator in 
>>>> testing.>>>>>>>>>>>> The theory's been discussed before on this   list, and I'm aware >>>>>> 
>>>> that more>>>>>> than one person/organization has experimented with this to some >>>>>> 
>>>> success. It>>>>>> was also *briefly *discussed at last year's   conference in DC.
>>>>>>>>>> However,>>>>>> every time I've seen a discussion about the
>>>> topic, it has never >>>>>> come along>>>>>> with what matters to   me: testing to make sure 
>>>> what's coming off
>>>>>>>>>> the DDS>>>>>> drive is the same (or better) data than what would go
>>>> down the >>>>>> AES/EBU>>>>>> pipeline.>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm still   extremely interested in this 
>>>> situation, and after >>>>>> having had  to>>>>>> deal with other similar formats, I've got 
>>>> ideas for   testing that >>>>>> I'd like to>>>>>> do. But I don't have a   working DDS setup 
>>>> here. I could build my
>>>>>>>>>> own, which>>>>>> I might do, but that's a can of worms, and there's
>>>> other things >>>>>> to be gained>>>>>> by having a collaborator in   these tests.>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,>>>>>> Jim>>>>>>>>>> Richard L.   Hess email: [log in to unmask]>>>>> Aurora, 
>>>> Ontario, Canada   (905) 713 6733 1-877-TAPE-FIX>>>>> Detailed contact information:
>>>> >>>>> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm>>>>> Quality tape
>>>>  transfers --  even from hard-to-play tapes.>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
> 

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager