I wouldn't get excited about the lp side to the Mengleberg legacy-most were
shitty sounding.His best recordings were filmed in the Paris suburbs studio
in the early 30's.
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Frank Forman <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Mengelberg LP Questions from Frank Forman
> Below is a listing of my Mengelberg LPs. I am most interested in knowing
> whether there may be different takes on some of the U.S. Capitol/Telefunken
> LPs than on the German Telefunkens. Is anyone interested in getting the
> discs and making detailed comparisions?
> I also want to know which of the items below have not appeared on compact
> disc. If so, I would like to make .wav and/or .mp3 copies of them.
> I have long-standing questions otherwise:
> 1. Should I rely on the dates on the 10-CD Q-disc issue of (mainly) live
> 2. What about the various issues of the live Tchaikovsky Fifth? I got the
> late Allen Mackler to place the 78s for the 1928 Columbia recording on one
> turntable and the first reissue, on a Bruno Walter Society LP, equalize the
> speeds. As suspected, the BWS issue indeed used the Columbia to fill in the
> missing several seconds. In other words, the recordings were in
> synchonization, until they diverged. Some fakes, however, have deliberately
> fiddled with the speed so that this test is not foolproof. Even audience
> noise has been added. (This is from a discussion of some Furtwa"ngler issues
> in the ARSC Journal. I am utterly baffled by this, since almost no money is
> involved!) Jim North wrote about these Fifths in several issues of fanfare,
> finding that different passages were dropped from different issues. Is the
> Q-disc now the entire live performance?
> 3. What about the various issues of the Beethoven Ninth, besides the one
> widely issued and reissued by Philips? I have read about mixes here also.
> 4. Which reissued of the Telefunken Tchaikovsky Sixth mixed the 1937 and
> 1941 issues?
> 5. A 1942 remake of the 1937 Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 (Old No. 6) appeared
> inadvertently on a Telefunken CD. But has the studio recording of the
> Beethoven Second ever surfaced?
> 6. And, of course, a rundown on the comparative sound of all such issues.
> 7. Alternate takes:
> a. Two were issued of the first side of the NYPhil Egmont Overture. Has the
> first take ever been reissued?
> b. Two takes of the MSND Scherzo. Both were issued on the Pearl 6-CD
> collection of his Columbias.
> c. An unissued take of Tchaikovski's Serenade Waltz, furnished by me for
> the Pearl issue, is now available to the public.
> d. An unissued acoustic of the Prelude on the Dutch National Anthem came
> out in Biddlulph WHL 025-6.
> e. That set also had a Strauss Heldenleben consisting of different takes,
> in each case, of the issued one.
> In the listing below, (Cxx) is the price given in Canfield's Guide, which
> Dave Canfield sold at that price, in US dollars. (I have a college willing
> to accept 78s. If I donate my Mengelberg LPs to it, I'll claim the Canfield
> price and will get back a third of the amount from my taxes. Dealers will
> pay trivial amounts for all these items. However, I also very much want to
> help my fellow collectors fill in holes in their collections and also want
> to preserve Mengelberg recordings that otherwise are not available in .wav
> and/or .mp3, hoping to find a server for them, though perhaps not in the
> U.S. until the copyright laws are changed or reinterpreted by the courts. (I
> much prefer the former.)
> 8. Conrad Hansen wrote Ronald Klett that immediately after laying down the
> Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1 for 78s in the Telefunken studio, they played it
> again without interruption on magnetic tape. It was issued by the Victor de
> Sabata Society of Japan as an LP, M 1003. Hansen had a copy. Does anyone
> 9. What films can be put onto CDs or .mp3s?
> 10. Exactly what has not appeared on compact disc?
> 11. All surviving parts of the 1924 electrics from a live broadcast have
> been issued by Pristine Audio, along with what survives of the 1938 BBC
> 12. I think I have a first movement of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, with
> Louis Zimmermann, that has not appeared anywhere else. I also have the
> Zimmermann recording that appeared on 78s and had falsely stated to have
> been conducted by Mengelberg.
> 13. There are a few other known or suspected misattributions, some of which
> are listed below. Another is a Ravel Left-Hand Concerto, played by Paul
> Wittgenstein, but in fact recorded by Bruno Walter. There are others I have
> forgotten. It is important to list these misattributions, let some future
> enthusiast claim a fresh discovery. Of course, a misattribution may turn out
> to have been real after all!
> 14. Is anyone working on a full, formal Mengelberg varorium discography? I
> have a great many, starting with Hardie's. A varorium discography would note
> which each one contains, what there probable errors are, and what questions
> remain. I have somewhat kept track of more specific recording dates as they
> have appeared on various CD issues and among the commentators.
> Now for my holdings:
> All with the Amesterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, unless otherwise
> I tentatively regard the dates Q-disc 97016 (10 CDs + DVD) gives for the
> live performances as definitive.
> I. Not under Federal Copyright Protection
> A. Camden
> CAL 337 (C6):
> Strauss: A Hero's Life. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra (1928
> CAL 347 (C11):
> J.C. Bach: Sinfonia, Op. 18, No. 2
> Saint-Saens: Spinning Wheel
> Mozart: Magic Flute Over.
> Beethoven: Egmont Over.
> Humperdinck: Hansel and Gretel Over.
> All are NYP recordings (not in order). (I NO LONGER HAVE THIS DISC.)
> B. Capitol-Telefunken
> L 8127 (10") (C12): Berlioz: Damnation of Faust (3 exc.) and Tchaikovsky
> 1812 Ov.
> P 8002 (C20): Beethoven: Symphony 3
> P 8013 (C6): Strauss: A Hero's Life (1941 recording) (2 copies)
> P 8023 (C19): Franck: Symphony
> P 8037 (C11): Dopper: Gothic Chaconnne (with Keilberth, German Philharmonic
> Orchestra of Prague: Pfitzner: Palestrina: Three Preludes)
> P 8040 (C38): Schubert: Symphony 7 (New No. 9) in C, ("Great")
> P 8053 (C22): Tchaikovsky: Symphony 5, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
> P 8060 (C8): Tchaikovsky: Serenade in C, Op. 48 (with Hans von Benda,
> Berlin Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra: Davorak: Serenade in E, Op. 22)
> P 8070 (C48): Brahms: Symphony 2
> P 8078 (C6): Brahms: Tragic Over.; (Side B) Schubert: Rosamunde Over.;
> Beethoven: Creatures of Prometheus: Overture and Finale (Allegretto);
> Beethoven: Ruins of Athens: Turkish March. The label on side A, after
> BRAHMS; TRAGIC OVERTURE, Op. 81 has SCHUBERT SONGS; VIENNA CHOIR BOYS; under
> the direction of; Ferdinand Grossman; R. Picitti, Piano. There is nothing on
> the disc itself but the Tragic Over.
> P 8079 (C12): Beethoven: Symphonies 1 and 8
> P 8097 (C12): Tchaikovsky: Concerto No. 1, Conrad Hansen, Berlin
> Philharmonic Orchestra. (I DO NOT OWN THIS.)
> P 8100 (C5): Strauss: Death and Transfiguration (with Clemens Krauss,
> Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra: Strauss: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks)
> P 8103 (C27): Tchaikovsky: Symphony 6 (presumably the 1941 recording)
> P 8110 (C20): Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 (Old No. 6) (presumably the 1937
> Fontana (Japanese Philips):
> Fontana FCM 20 (C9): Franck: Symphony and Strauss: Don Juan (live, Hardie
> dates 1940.10.3 and 1940.12.12)
> Fontana SFON 10599 (C12) Beethoven: Symphony 5 (Old No. 6) and Schubert:
> Symphony 8 (live, Hardie dates 1940.4.18 and 1941.7.27)
> C. Mercury (10")
> MG 15000 (C10): Strauss: Don Juan and Tchaikovsky: 1812 Over. (2 copies)
> D. MRF (label of Mauro R. Fuguette)
> MRF 74 (three LPs) (no booklet) (C60):
> Mahler: Lieder einen fahrenden Gesellen. Hermann Schey, baritone, live
> 1940. Hardie says 1939.11.9. Q-disc gives 1939.11.23.
> Franck: Symphonic Variations. Walter Gieseking. Live 1940.10.31. Hardie
> says 1940.10.13.
> Ravel: Daphne and Chloe Suite No. 2. Live, 1938.10.6. Hardie and Q-disc
> agree with date.
> Ro"ntgen: Old Dutch Dances. Hardie gives 1940.11.10. Allen Mackler says it
> is this live performance, rather than the Telefunken studio recording.
> Mahler: Symphony 5: Adagietto. From Decca 25011 (mx. XXB 7492/3). Hardie's
> date is 1926 May.
> Kodaly: Hary Janos Suite, live 1940.12.12. Hardie and Q-disc agree on date.
> Wagenaar: The Taming of the Shrew Over. Hardie says 1940.10.10 live. Q-disc
> agrees on date.
> Kodaly: Peacock Variations, live 1939.11.23 (world premiere). Hardie and
> Q-disc agree on date.
> St. Algedonde: Wilhelmus von Nassauen (Netherlands anthem). Telefunken A
> 2899, side 1, mx 23717-1, recorded 1938.10.30. Hardie records a live
> performance from 1936.12.20.
> Valerius: Niederlandisches Dankgebet (Netherlands Prayer of Thanks: verses
> 2 and 3 from Telebunken A 2899, side 2 (mx. 23718)
> Rachmaninoff: Concerto 2, Walter Gieseking, live 1940.10.31. Hardie agrees
> on date.
> Schumann: Piano Concerto, Emil von Sauer, live 1940.10.10. Hardie agrees on
> E. Opus Records
> MLG 78(C20): Schumann: Piano Concerto, Emil von Sauer. Live 1940.10.10
> (with Emil von Sauer playing Schumann: Carnival, 1923 (acoustic)
> F. Philips
> W 09907L (C40): Brahms: Symphony 1, live 1940.10.13 (original issue)
> PHM 500041 (C5): Schubert: Symphony No. 9 (Old No. 7), live 1940.12.19
> Rococo 2066 (Canada) (all live) (C12):
> Strauss: Don Juan. Hardie date 1940.12.12.
> Grieg: Peer Gynt Suite 2. Hardie and Q-disc give 1943.4.15
> Ravel: Daphnis and Chloe Suite 2. Hardie and Q-disc give 1938.10.6.
> II. Under Federal copyright protection
> Discocorp (formerly the Bruno Walter Society)
> Curtain Call 234 (5) (C57):
> Beethoven: Sym. 3. 1943.5.6. So also Hardie. Date much disputed. Some say
> Beethoven: EgO. 1943.4.29. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
> Brahms: Violin Concerto. Herman Krebbers. 1943.4.13. Hardie and Q-disc
> agree with date.
> Wagner: Tannha"user Over. 1940.10.27. Hardie agrees, but Q-disc gives
> Berlioz: Damnation of Faust: Dance of the Sprites, Dance of the Sylphs,
> Hungarian March. 1943.3.21. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
> Bach: Cantata 202 (Wedding). To van der Sluys, soprano. 1939.4.17. Hardie
> and Q-disc agree with date.
> Bach: Suite 2 in b for two flutes. 1939.4.17. Hardie agrees with date.
> Weber: ObOv. 1940.10.13. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
> Weber: Oberon: Ocean, Thou Mighty Monster! Ruth Horne, soprano. 1943.3.18.
> Hardie agrees with date.
> Mozart: Flute Concerto in D, K. 314. Hubert Barwahser. unknown date. Hardie
> has no date either. Q-disc gives 1942.5.3.
> Mozart: Concerto 19. Willem Andriessen. 1940.10.13. Hardie has no date.
> Mozart: Exaltate, jubilate. Ria Ginster, soprano. unknown date. Hardie has
> none either.
> Dvorak: Violin Conerto. Maria Neuss. 1943.3.25. Hardie agrees.
> Rachmaninoff: Concerto 2. Walter Gieseking, piano. 1940.10.31. Hardie
> IGI 358 (C20):
> Franck: Symphonic Variations. Walter Gieseking, piano. Live 1940.10.31.
> Rachmaninoff: Concerto 3. Walter Gieseking, piano. Live 1940.3.28.
> Past Masters (all live)
> PM 13 (C23):
> Dvorak: Cello Concerto. Maurice Gendron, The Paris Radio Orchestra.
> 1944.1.16. This is dubious.
> Pfitzner: Cello Concerto 2 i G, Op. 42. Gaspar Cassado. 1940.12.12. Hardie
> PM 16 (C16):
> Dopper: Symphony 7 (Auider Zee). 1940.12.8. Hardie agrees.
> Voormolen: Sinfonia. 1940.12.12. Hardie agrees.
> III. Under European copyright protection
> Archive Documents (label of Michael G. Thomas). Most of these were reissued
> on compact discs.
> AD 103/4 (two LPs) (C103):
> Mozart: Magic Flute Over. Live late 1943 or early 1944. Q-disc gives
> Wagner: T&I: P&L. Live 1943.3.18, according to Thomas, in correspondence
> with James H. North. Authenticity questioned by Klett and others.
> Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. Hermann Schey, baritone. Live
> 1939.11.9. Q-disc gives 1939.11.23.
> Handel: Messiah: Hallelujah chorus. Live 1938 May. Klett refines to
> Bach: Cantata 57. Jo Vincent, soprano, and Max Kloos, baritone. Live
> Schubert-Cassado: Arpeggione Sonata. Gaspar Cassado, cello. Live 1940.13.13
> (sic). Hardie gives 1940.12.12.
> AD 105/6 (two LPs) (C105):
> Liszt: Hungarian Fantasia. Wilhelm Backhaus, Radio Breslau Orchestra. Live.
> Klett quoted me in his newsletter, adding to his suspicions of authenticity.
> I stated that the recording was not good enough for either the conductor or
> the pianist.
> Handel: Alcina Suite. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
> studio recording.
> Beethoven: Symphony 1. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
> studio recording.
> Beethoven: Concerto 5. Cor De Groot. Live 1942.5.9. Hardie agrees on date.
> This has missing bars and runs on 34:50. The Q-disc version, with the same
> date, is complete and runs 39:18.
> Schelling: A Victory Ball. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
> studio recording.
> Tchaikovsky: Marche Slav. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra.
> Brunswick studio recording.