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ARSCLIST  April 2010

ARSCLIST April 2010

Subject:

Re: Mengelberg LP Questions

From:

Roger Kulp <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:20:29 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (310 lines)

I was not aware of ANY of these "Victor de Sabata Society of Japan" releases.What did they put out,and when?

The only Bruno Walter Society records I have are Furtwangler Lps dating from the 1980s,also from Japan.They are wih such unusual orchestras for Furtwangler (RAI Torino,Stockholm,etc.I assume they are all from Radio broadcasts.)Has this ARSC Journal article been posted online?

I would assume this Japanese Fontana SFON 10599,is the same one I have on British Philips GL 5689.(I have not seen a US pressing of this particular release.)This is from the "Philips Classical Favourites"  Series,with the same sort of liner notes as the US Schubert,etc issued around the same time.Does the SFON number mean it is fake processed "stereo"?

Somewhat OT,but does anybody else have any of the early Telefunken Lps from Australia,pressed with US stampers ?

Roger




________________________________
From: Nigel Barrett <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 6:38:15 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Mengelberg LP Questions

I wouldn't get excited about the lp side to the Mengleberg legacy-most were
shitty sounding.His best recordings were filmed in the Paris suburbs studio
in the early 30's.

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Frank Forman <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Mengelberg LP Questions from Frank Forman
>
> Below is a listing of my Mengelberg LPs. I am most interested in knowing
> whether there may be different takes on some of the U.S. Capitol/Telefunken
> LPs than on the German Telefunkens. Is anyone interested in getting the
> discs and making detailed comparisions?
>
> I also want to know which of the items below have not appeared on compact
> disc. If so, I would like to make .wav and/or .mp3 copies of them.
>
> I have long-standing questions otherwise:
>
> 1. Should I rely on the dates on the 10-CD Q-disc issue of (mainly) live
> performances?
>
> 2. What about the various issues of the live Tchaikovsky Fifth? I got the
> late Allen Mackler to place the 78s for the 1928 Columbia recording on one
> turntable and the first reissue, on a Bruno Walter Society LP, equalize the
> speeds. As suspected, the BWS issue indeed used the Columbia to fill in the
> missing several seconds. In other words, the recordings were in
> synchonization, until they diverged. Some fakes, however, have deliberately
> fiddled with the speed so that this test is not foolproof. Even audience
> noise has been added. (This is from a discussion of some Furtwangler issues
> in the ARSC Journal. I am utterly baffled by this, since almost no money is
> involved!) Jim North wrote about these Fifths in several issues of fanfare,
> finding that different passages were dropped from different issues. Is the
> Q-disc now the entire live performance?
>
> 3. What about the various issues of the Beethoven Ninth, besides the one
> widely issued and reissued by Philips? I have read about mixes here also.
>
> 4. Which reissued of the Telefunken Tchaikovsky Sixth mixed the 1937 and
> 1941 issues?
>
> 5. A 1942 remake of the 1937 Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 (Old No. 6) appeared
> inadvertently on a Telefunken CD. But has the studio recording of the
> Beethoven Second ever surfaced?
>
> 6. And, of course, a rundown on the comparative sound of all such issues.
>
> 7. Alternate takes:
>
> a. Two were issued of the first side of the NYPhil Egmont Overture. Has the
> first take ever been reissued?
> b. Two takes of the MSND Scherzo. Both were issued on the Pearl 6-CD
> collection of his Columbias.
> c. An unissued take of Tchaikovski's Serenade Waltz, furnished by me for
> the Pearl issue, is now available to the public.
> d. An unissued acoustic of the Prelude on the Dutch National Anthem came
> out in Biddlulph WHL 025-6.
> e. That set also had a Strauss Heldenleben consisting of different takes,
> in each case, of the issued one.
>
> In the listing below, (Cxx) is the price given in Canfield's Guide, which
> Dave Canfield sold at that price, in US dollars. (I have a college willing
> to accept 78s. If I donate my Mengelberg LPs to it, I'll claim the Canfield
> price and will get back a third of the amount from my taxes. Dealers will
> pay trivial amounts for all these items. However, I also very much want to
> help my fellow collectors fill in holes in their collections and also want
> to preserve Mengelberg recordings that otherwise are not available in .wav
> and/or .mp3, hoping to find a server for them, though perhaps not in the
> U.S. until the copyright laws are changed or reinterpreted by the courts. (I
> much prefer the former.)
>
> 8. Conrad Hansen wrote Ronald Klett that immediately after laying down the
> Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1 for 78s in the Telefunken studio, they played it
> again without interruption on magnetic tape. It was issued by the Victor de
> Sabata Society of Japan as an LP, M 1003. Hansen had a copy. Does anyone
> else?
>
> 9. What films can be put onto CDs or .mp3s?
>
> 10. Exactly what has not appeared on compact disc?
>
> 11. All surviving parts of the 1924 electrics from a live broadcast have
> been issued by Pristine Audio, along with what survives of the 1938 BBC
> broadcasts.
>
> 12. I think I have a first movement of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, with
> Louis Zimmermann, that has not appeared anywhere else. I also have the
> Zimmermann recording that appeared on 78s and had falsely stated to have
> been conducted by Mengelberg.
>
> 13. There are a few other known or suspected misattributions, some of which
> are listed below. Another is a Ravel Left-Hand Concerto, played by Paul
> Wittgenstein, but in fact recorded by Bruno Walter. There are others I have
> forgotten. It is important to list these misattributions, let some future
> enthusiast claim a fresh discovery. Of course, a misattribution may turn out
> to have been real after all!
>
> 14. Is anyone working on a full, formal Mengelberg varorium discography? I
> have a great many, starting with Hardie's. A varorium discography would note
> which each one contains, what there probable errors are, and what questions
> remain. I have somewhat kept track of more specific recording dates as they
> have appeared on various CD issues and among the commentators.
>
> Now for my holdings:
>
> All with the Amesterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, unless otherwise
> specified.
> I tentatively regard the dates Q-disc 97016 (10 CDs + DVD) gives for the
> live performances as definitive.
>
> I. Not under Federal Copyright Protection
>
> A. Camden
>
> CAL 337 (C6):
> Strauss: A Hero's Life. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra (1928
> recording)
>
> CAL 347 (C11):
> J.C. Bach: Sinfonia, Op. 18, No. 2
> Saint-Saens: Spinning Wheel
> Mozart: Magic Flute Over.
> Beethoven: Egmont Over.
> Humperdinck: Hansel and Gretel Over.
> All are NYP recordings (not in order). (I NO LONGER HAVE THIS DISC.)
>
> B. Capitol-Telefunken
>
> L 8127 (10") (C12): Berlioz: Damnation of Faust (3 exc.) and Tchaikovsky
> 1812 Ov.
>
> P 8002 (C20): Beethoven: Symphony 3
> P 8013 (C6): Strauss: A Hero's Life (1941 recording) (2 copies)
> P 8023 (C19): Franck: Symphony
> P 8037 (C11): Dopper: Gothic Chaconnne (with Keilberth, German Philharmonic
> Orchestra of Prague: Pfitzner: Palestrina: Three Preludes)
> P 8040 (C38): Schubert: Symphony 7 (New No. 9) in C, ("Great")
> P 8053 (C22): Tchaikovsky: Symphony 5, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
> P 8060 (C8): Tchaikovsky: Serenade in C, Op. 48 (with Hans von Benda,
> Berlin Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra: Davorak: Serenade in E, Op. 22)
> P 8070 (C48): Brahms: Symphony 2
> P 8078 (C6): Brahms: Tragic Over.; (Side B) Schubert: Rosamunde Over.;
> Beethoven: Creatures of Prometheus: Overture and Finale (Allegretto);
> Beethoven: Ruins of Athens: Turkish March. The label on side A, after
> BRAHMS; TRAGIC OVERTURE, Op. 81 has SCHUBERT SONGS; VIENNA CHOIR BOYS; under
> the direction of; Ferdinand Grossman; R. Picitti, Piano. There is nothing on
> the disc itself but the Tragic Over.
> P 8079 (C12): Beethoven: Symphonies 1 and 8
> P 8097 (C12): Tchaikovsky: Concerto No. 1, Conrad Hansen, Berlin
> Philharmonic Orchestra. (I DO NOT OWN THIS.)
> P 8100 (C5): Strauss: Death and Transfiguration (with Clemens Krauss,
> Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra: Strauss: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks)
> P 8103 (C27): Tchaikovsky: Symphony 6 (presumably the 1941 recording)
> P 8110 (C20): Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 (Old No. 6) (presumably the 1937
> recording)
>
> Fontana (Japanese Philips):
> Fontana FCM 20 (C9): Franck: Symphony and Strauss: Don Juan (live, Hardie
> dates 1940.10.3 and 1940.12.12)
> Fontana SFON 10599 (C12) Beethoven: Symphony 5 (Old No. 6) and Schubert:
> Symphony 8 (live, Hardie dates 1940.4.18 and 1941.7.27)
>
> C. Mercury (10")
> MG 15000 (C10): Strauss: Don Juan and Tchaikovsky: 1812 Over. (2 copies)
>
> D. MRF (label of Mauro R. Fuguette)
> MRF 74 (three LPs) (no booklet) (C60):
> Mahler: Lieder einen fahrenden Gesellen. Hermann Schey, baritone, live
> 1940. Hardie says 1939.11.9. Q-disc gives 1939.11.23.
> Franck: Symphonic Variations. Walter Gieseking. Live 1940.10.31. Hardie
> says 1940.10.13.
> Ravel: Daphne and Chloe Suite No. 2. Live, 1938.10.6. Hardie and Q-disc
> agree with date.
> Ro"ntgen: Old Dutch Dances. Hardie gives 1940.11.10. Allen Mackler says it
> is this live performance, rather than the Telefunken studio recording.
> Mahler: Symphony 5: Adagietto. From Decca 25011 (mx. XXB 7492/3). Hardie's
> date is 1926 May.
> Kodaly: Hary Janos Suite, live 1940.12.12. Hardie and Q-disc agree on date.
> Wagenaar: The Taming of the Shrew Over. Hardie says 1940.10.10 live. Q-disc
> agrees on date.
> Kodaly: Peacock Variations, live 1939.11.23 (world premiere). Hardie and
> Q-disc agree on date.
> St. Algedonde: Wilhelmus von Nassauen (Netherlands anthem). Telefunken A
> 2899, side 1, mx 23717-1, recorded 1938.10.30. Hardie records a live
> performance from 1936.12.20.
> Valerius: Niederlandisches Dankgebet (Netherlands Prayer of Thanks: verses
> 2 and 3 from Telebunken A 2899, side 2 (mx. 23718)
> Rachmaninoff: Concerto 2, Walter Gieseking, live 1940.10.31. Hardie agrees
> on date.
> Schumann: Piano Concerto, Emil von Sauer, live 1940.10.10. Hardie agrees on
> date.
>
> E. Opus Records
>
> MLG 78(C20): Schumann: Piano Concerto, Emil von Sauer. Live 1940.10.10
> (with Emil von Sauer playing Schumann: Carnival, 1923 (acoustic)
>
> F. Philips
>
> W 09907L (C40): Brahms: Symphony 1, live 1940.10.13 (original issue)
> PHM 500041 (C5): Schubert: Symphony No. 9 (Old No. 7), live 1940.12.19
>
> Rococo 2066 (Canada) (all live) (C12):
> Strauss: Don Juan. Hardie date 1940.12.12.
> Grieg: Peer Gynt Suite 2. Hardie and Q-disc give 1943.4.15
> Ravel: Daphnis and Chloe Suite 2. Hardie and Q-disc give 1938.10.6.
>
> II. Under Federal copyright protection
>
> Discocorp (formerly the Bruno Walter Society)
>
> Curtain Call 234 (5) (C57):
> Beethoven: Sym. 3. 1943.5.6. So also Hardie. Date much disputed. Some say
> 1940.
> Beethoven: EgO. 1943.4.29. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
> Brahms: Violin Concerto. Herman Krebbers. 1943.4.13. Hardie and Q-disc
> agree with date.
> Wagner: Tannha"user Over. 1940.10.27. Hardie agrees, but Q-disc gives
> 1940.8.10.
> Berlioz: Damnation of Faust: Dance of the Sprites, Dance of the Sylphs,
> Hungarian March. 1943.3.21. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
> Bach: Cantata 202 (Wedding). To van der Sluys, soprano. 1939.4.17. Hardie
> and Q-disc agree with date.
> Bach: Suite 2 in b for two flutes. 1939.4.17. Hardie agrees with date.
> Weber: ObOv. 1940.10.13. Hardie and Q-disc agree with date.
> Weber: Oberon: Ocean, Thou Mighty Monster! Ruth Horne, soprano. 1943.3.18.
> Hardie agrees with date.
> Mozart: Flute Concerto in D, K. 314. Hubert Barwahser. unknown date. Hardie
> has no date either. Q-disc gives 1942.5.3.
> Mozart: Concerto 19. Willem Andriessen. 1940.10.13. Hardie has no date.
> Mozart: Exaltate, jubilate. Ria Ginster, soprano. unknown date. Hardie has
> none either.
> Dvorak: Violin Conerto. Maria Neuss. 1943.3.25. Hardie agrees.
> Rachmaninoff: Concerto 2. Walter Gieseking, piano. 1940.10.31. Hardie
> agrees.
>
> IGI 358 (C20):
> Franck: Symphonic Variations. Walter Gieseking, piano. Live 1940.10.31.
> Rachmaninoff: Concerto 3. Walter Gieseking, piano. Live 1940.3.28.
>
> Past Masters (all live)
> PM 13 (C23):
> Dvorak: Cello Concerto. Maurice Gendron, The Paris Radio Orchestra.
> 1944.1.16. This is dubious.
> Pfitzner: Cello Concerto 2 i G, Op. 42. Gaspar Cassado. 1940.12.12. Hardie
> agrees.
>
> PM 16 (C16):
> Dopper: Symphony 7 (Auider Zee). 1940.12.8. Hardie agrees.
> Voormolen: Sinfonia. 1940.12.12. Hardie agrees.
>
> III. Under European copyright protection
>
> Archive Documents (label of Michael G. Thomas). Most of these were reissued
> on compact discs.
>
> AD 103/4 (two LPs) (C103):
> Mozart: Magic Flute Over. Live late 1943 or early 1944. Q-disc gives
> 1942.3.5.
> Wagner: T&I: P&L. Live 1943.3.18, according to Thomas, in correspondence
> with James H. North. Authenticity questioned by Klett and others.
> Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. Hermann Schey, baritone. Live
> 1939.11.9. Q-disc gives 1939.11.23.
> Handel: Messiah: Hallelujah chorus. Live 1938 May. Klett refines to
> 1938.5.7.
> Bach: Cantata 57. Jo Vincent, soprano, and Max Kloos, baritone. Live
> 1940.7.11.
> Schubert-Cassado: Arpeggione Sonata. Gaspar Cassado, cello. Live 1940.13.13
> (sic). Hardie gives 1940.12.12.
>
> AD 105/6 (two LPs) (C105):
> Liszt: Hungarian Fantasia. Wilhelm Backhaus, Radio Breslau Orchestra. Live.
> Klett quoted me in his newsletter, adding to his suspicions of authenticity.
> I stated that the recording was not good enough for either the conductor or
> the pianist.
> Handel: Alcina Suite. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
> studio recording.
> Beethoven: Symphony 1. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
> studio recording.
> Beethoven: Concerto 5. Cor De Groot. Live 1942.5.9. Hardie agrees on date.
> This has missing bars and runs on 34:50. The Q-disc version, with the same
> date, is complete and runs 39:18.
> Schelling: A Victory Ball. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra. Victor
> studio recording.
> Tchaikovsky: Marche Slav. New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra.
> Brunswick studio recording.
>



      

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