"I would like to suggest that depreciation does not mean that the
"functionality" would go away but could still live on in an optional
<extraTermData>"

Given that <displayTerm> is currently part of the scan specification (1.2),
if it is useful, it should not be removed with its functionality relegated
to <extraTermData>.  It simply would make no sense to do that.   --Ray 

-----Original Message-----
From: SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edward C. Zimmermann
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 6:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan responses

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:53:19 +0100, John Harrison wrote

> 
> There would seem to be a clear use-case for displayTerm, although I 
> confess I've never figured out how to implement it tidily in our 
> search engine.

I would like to suggest that depreciation does not mean that the
"functionality" would go away but could still live on in an optional
<extraTermData> which can contain in addition to an element for alternative
display (the effective functionality of DisplayTerm but with a slightly
different semantics) also hint and help. These could be important for some
barrier free applications. 

Examples of where hint and help are useful are plenty. My suggestion to have
these in the response and in the terms... [Note: ***response*** too!]

This seems more consistent and logical to me.. fits well in an alignment of
Facet and Scan.. and better reflects the consequences of recasting the
semantics for value away from "exactly as it appears in the index" (which I
never followed) towards what we've called "anything goes" and "server knows
best" (which is probably what many of us have been doing the whole time). 

> 
> At first I was horrified by the "anything goes" proposal for the 
> search term value, but then I read on a little further and came round 
> to the idea. However I would tighten up the definition a little to 
> something more like:
> 
> "A term that when used in a search of the same index, produces an 
> appropriate search response, consisting of 1 or more record(s).
> Where a numberOfRecords is also supplied by the scan response, the 
> subsequent search should return the specified number of records."

Was that not the implicit intent of the "exactly as it appears in the index"
following an assumption that terms in an index are terms in records that can
be found whence a term "exactly as it appears in the index" will return 1 or
more records?
Technically being in the index does not guarantee that a search response
will return any records but we've come to assume that these terms when used
as a search term would produce an appropriate search response consisting of
1 or more records--- which btw. a number of systems don't always deliver
(and since my engine has a facility for search time stop words I can well
see use cases of my own engine that don't deliver). Effectively its been
"what the server that supplied the term deems appropriate" and we've had
wishing thinking that the server would deem appropriate a search response,
consisting of 1 or more record(s). I'd like to leave this ambiguity in.

I think the important issue here is that the term is supplied by the server
and the server provides a search response as it intended. It might be the
desire of the operator of the search server to provide service that fulfill
their customers' expectations but these issues are "tar pits" outside the
realm of protocols. 



> 
> IMO this definition should also apply to term in facets, due to their 
> similarities in use.

Yes.


> 
> All the best,
> John
> 
> -- 
>               '.    ,'.         John Harrison
>              '  `  '  '         University of Liverpool
>  c h e s h i r e  |  3          e: [log in to unmask]
>                   v             w: www.cheshire3.org
>               `-..;.'           t: 0151 7954271
>                 ..,     (c)
> 
> On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 21:04 +0100, Ray Denenberg wrote:
> > The utility of displayTerm (vs. actualTerm) was illustrated  many 
> > years ago during early implementation of Z39.50 browse/scan.  You'd 
> > have to look up that discussion in the archive, but basically, an 
> > implementation had an index where terms where not very user friendly 
> > but were much more efficient for searching than their corresponding 
> > displayTerms. I don't recall who the implementer was, but there was a
real implementation.
> > 
> > Of course this was for scan (or "browse" as we called it in Z39.50), 
> > not for facets.
> > 
> > My position on this is that scan and facets should be aligned in 
> > this matter. That is, they should both have displayTerm or neither 
> > should. That means the OASIS committee should consider depricating
displayTerm from Scan.
> > I don't say it SHOULD DEPRICATE it, it should consult with Z39.50 
> > and SRU implementors to see if displayTerm is still 
> > necessary/useful. That was the purpose of Ralph's posting to the SRU 
> > list. If it seems that displayTerm should remain in scan then I think it
should be added to the facet response.
> > If it seems nobody cares whether it is retained or not then it 
> > should be dropped from scan 2.0 (and not added to the facet response).
> > 
> > --Ray
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors 
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of LeVan,Ralph
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:07 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan 
> > responses
> > 
> > Pretty much all the conversation on that list has been about changes 
> > to the facet response and the only controversial change is my desire 
> > to add a displayTerm.
> > 
> > Here's a pointer to the achive for this month:
> > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/search-ws-comment/201010/thread
> > s.ht
> > ml
> > 
> > Ralph
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors 
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:50 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan 
> > > responses
> > > 
> > > Can you link to the thread in the archives of the list, or is it 
> > > (like most of our lists, for no good reason) private?
> > > 
> > > I am curious what the arguments against it are. It seems like a 
> > > good idea to me?
> > > 
> > > But I do not use Scan at all.
> > > 
> > > I do not use facetting through SRU at all, but if/when I do, I 
> > > believe I'd use displayTerm if it was there.
> > > 
> > > LeVan,Ralph wrote:
> > > > There's an overlong debate going on in the search-ws-comment 
> > > > mail
> > list
> > > ([log in to unmask]<mailto:search-ws-
> > > [log in to unmask]>) about including a displayTerm as a 
> > > subelement of <term> in a facet response.  The feelings against
> > including
> > > displayTerm are so strong as to suggest that it should be 
> > > deprecated
> > in Scan.
> > > >
> > > > I've been the one arguing for the inclusion of displayTerm for
> > consistency with
> > > Scan, but I don't use it myself in any of my implementations.  So, 
> > > my
> > question for
> > > you all is: do any of you actually use the displayTerm in your
> > responses?  If not,
> > > I'll happily drop my arguments.  If so, can you provide a good use
> > case?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
> > > >


--

Edward C. Zimmermann, NONMONOTONIC LAB
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