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ZNG  October 2010

ZNG October 2010

Subject:

Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan responses

From:

"LeVan,Ralph" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors

Date:

Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:46:01 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (238 lines)

Common features that end up in extraData are obvious candidates for
formal addition to the standard.

Ralph

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edward C. Zimmermann
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 6:09 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan responses
> 
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:53:19 +0100, John Harrison wrote
> 
> >
> > There would seem to be a clear use-case for displayTerm, although I
> > confess I've never figured out how to implement it tidily in our
search
> > engine.
> 
> I would like to suggest that depreciation does not mean that the
> "functionality" would go away but could still live on in an optional
> <extraTermData> which can contain in addition to an element for
alternative
> display (the effective functionality of DisplayTerm but with a
slightly
> different semantics) also hint and help. These could be important for
some
> barrier free applications.
> 
> Examples of where hint and help are useful are plenty. My suggestion
to have
> these in the response and in the terms... [Note: ***response*** too!]
> 
> This seems more consistent and logical to me.. fits well in an
alignment of
> Facet and Scan.. and better reflects the consequences of recasting the
> semantics for value away from "exactly as it appears in the index"
(which I
> never followed) towards what we've called "anything goes" and "server
knows
> best" (which is probably what many of us have been doing the whole
time).
> 
> >
> > At first I was horrified by the "anything goes" proposal for the
search
> > term value, but then I read on a little further and came round to
the
> > idea. However I would tighten up the definition a little to
something
> > more like:
> >
> > "A term that when used in a search of the same index, produces an
> > appropriate search response, consisting of 1 or more record(s).
> > Where a numberOfRecords is also supplied by the scan response, the
> subsequent
> > search should return the specified number of records."
> 
> Was that not the implicit intent of the "exactly as it appears in the
index"
> following an assumption that terms in an index are terms in records
that can
> be found whence a term "exactly as it appears in the index" will
return 1 or
> more records?
> Technically being in the index does not guarantee that a search
response will
> return any records but we've come to assume that these terms when used
as a
> search term would produce an appropriate search response consisting of
1 or
> more records--- which btw. a number of systems don't always deliver
(and since
> my engine has a facility for search time stop words I can well see use
cases
> of my own engine that don't deliver). Effectively its been "what the
server
> that supplied the term deems appropriate" and we've had wishing
thinking that
> the server would deem appropriate a search response, consisting of 1
or more
> record(s). I'd like to leave this ambiguity in.
> 
> I think the important issue here is that the term is supplied by the
server
> and the server provides a search response as it intended. It might be
the
> desire of the operator of the search server to provide service that
fulfill
> their customers' expectations but these issues are "tar pits" outside
the
> realm of protocols.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > IMO this definition should also apply to term in facets, due to
their
> > similarities in use.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> >
> > All the best,
> > John
> >
> > --
> >               '.    ,'.         John Harrison
> >              '  `  '  '         University of Liverpool
> >  c h e s h i r e  |  3          e: [log in to unmask]
> >                   v             w: www.cheshire3.org
> >               `-..;.'           t: 0151 7954271
> >                 ..,     (c)
> >
> > On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 21:04 +0100, Ray Denenberg wrote:
> > > The utility of displayTerm (vs. actualTerm) was illustrated  many
years ago
> > > during early implementation of Z39.50 browse/scan.  You'd have to
look up
> > > that discussion in the archive, but basically, an implementation
had an
> > > index where terms where not very user friendly but were much more
efficient
> > > for searching than their corresponding displayTerms. I don't
recall who the
> > > implementer was, but there was a real implementation.
> > >
> > > Of course this was for scan (or "browse" as we called it in
Z39.50), not for
> > > facets.
> > >
> > > My position on this is that scan and facets should be aligned in
this
> > > matter. That is, they should both have displayTerm or neither
should. That
> > > means the OASIS committee should consider depricating displayTerm
from
> Scan.
> > > I don't say it SHOULD DEPRICATE it, it should consult with Z39.50
and SRU
> > > implementors to see if displayTerm is still necessary/useful. That
was the
> > > purpose of Ralph's posting to the SRU list. If it seems that
displayTerm
> > > should remain in scan then I think it should be added to the facet
response.
> > > If it seems nobody cares whether it is retained or not then it
should be
> > > dropped from scan 2.0 (and not added to the facet response).
> > >
> > > --Ray
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of LeVan,Ralph
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:07 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan
responses
> > >
> > > Pretty much all the conversation on that list has been about
changes to the
> > > facet response and the only controversial change is my desire to
add a
> > > displayTerm.
> > >
> > > Here's a pointer to the achive for this month:
> > >
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/search-ws-comment/201010/threads.ht
> > > ml
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: SRU (Search and Retrieve Via URL) Implementors
> > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:50 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: <displayTerm> as a subelement of <term> in Scan
responses
> > > >
> > > > Can you link to the thread in the archives of the list, or is it
(like
> > > > most of our lists, for no good reason) private?
> > > >
> > > > I am curious what the arguments against it are. It seems like a
good
> > > > idea to me?
> > > >
> > > > But I do not use Scan at all.
> > > >
> > > > I do not use facetting through SRU at all, but if/when I do, I
believe
> > > > I'd use displayTerm if it was there.
> > > >
> > > > LeVan,Ralph wrote:
> > > > > There's an overlong debate going on in the search-ws-comment
mail
> > > list
> > > > ([log in to unmask]<mailto:search-ws-
> > > > [log in to unmask]>) about including a displayTerm as
a
> > > > subelement of <term> in a facet response.  The feelings against
> > > including
> > > > displayTerm are so strong as to suggest that it should be
deprecated
> > > in Scan.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been the one arguing for the inclusion of displayTerm for
> > > consistency with
> > > > Scan, but I don't use it myself in any of my implementations.
So, my
> > > question for
> > > > you all is: do any of you actually use the displayTerm in your
> > > responses?  If not,
> > > > I'll happily drop my arguments.  If so, can you provide a good
use
> > > case?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ralph
> > > > >
> > > > >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Edward C. Zimmermann, NONMONOTONIC LAB
> Basis Systeme netzwerk, Munich Ges. des buergerl. Rechts
> Office Leo (R&D):
>   Leopoldstrasse 53-55, D-80802 Munich,
>   Federal Republic of Germany
> http://www.nonmonotonic.net
> Umsatz-St-ID: DE130492967

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