A similar situation existed with video.The C30C60C90 (Dates me don't it?) cassette has its cult to this day,but I don't believe a similar group of followers is out there for VHS,but I could be wrong.You'd be hard pressed to find a more devoted buyer/fetishist for vinyl and shellac than I am,but I was overjoyed when the DVD first came out.No more distorted picture,out of sync sound,or having to pay the video store to replace a tape my VCR ate and chewed to pieces.
Oh and Tom,if there was a record that I bought when I was growing up that I knew I was going to play until I wore it out,I would do just that,and buy multiple copies.
Roger
--- On Thu, 1/13/11, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DATs DELETED but not LPs (was: 15/16 Recording Speed)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 12:19 PM
And, not only backing up Steve's point but adding to it ...
When CD's came along the industry DID SUPPORT TWO FORMATS, for YEARS. Mass-duped cassettes outsold CD's until into the 1990's, ten years of side-by-side sales until CD's finally won out. Anyone who ever deal with those awful-sounding cassettes probably rejoiced with me when cheap portable and car CD players came along, and soon after that cassettes faded into the sunset.
I like LPs as much as the next collector of them, but the quality control on CDs was so much better, from Day 1. You bought the things, and they reliably worked in all your players. They weren't hopelessly warped, pressed off-center, made of crackly garbage vinyl, etc. And of course they beat the mass-duped cassettes hands-down, as did all but the worst LPs.
-- Tom Fine
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Smolian" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DATs DELETED but not LPs (was: 15/16 Recording Speed)
> >From the days of the Muntz 4track, later 8 track until the CD, the record
> business was running at least two and, often, three "successful" formats and inventories simultaneously, an extra expense to all..
>
> One point, often overlooked, is that the CD offered high quality and portablilty. The financially beneficial advantage of the CD was that it streamlined the entire distribution chain, cutting costs significantly.
>
> Now 4G allows higher quality downoads much more quickly than 3G.
>
> Downloading, to the rights owner, means the need to manufacture a phyiscal object is remeved, hence the closing of the Sony facility.
>
> These business folks are in it to make money. We depend on them for our recorded music. We'd all be a lot poorer (and this list would be much less active) without them.
>
> Steve Smolian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fine" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 12:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] DATs DELETED but not LPs (was: 15/16 Recording Speed)
>
>
>> I don't see any great "conspiracy" in the practices described by Schwann regarding LPs. The record companies had invested a great deal of money in CD production and manufacturing, and the simple fact was the CDs could be replicated in a manner where very few were returned for quality defects (unlike late-era LPs, especially when sold to picky buyers in the remaining small stores), and also everyone saw the advantage to getting the consumers to buy CD players and CDs so they would move away from cassettes as soon as cheap/plentiful car and portable CD players hit the market. Again, tape duplication was not a great business. The CD plants could, with some good training and QC procedures, turn out reliably uniform copies millions of times if needed. No more fussy ancient stamping equipment, messy vinyl compounds and, even worse than that, tape duplicating nightmares. The win-win that made all of this inevitable was that consumers could be re-sold their
entire music collection in this fab new format. If the industry had been this business-minded earlier this century, they might have gotten yet another bite at the consumers when the masses started moving to downloads. Instead, they stupidly left a void where Napster filled in and it's been downhill ever since. The worst is, it was clear where all of this was going as soon as the first "ripping" software appear in the 90's, and definitely as soon as CD copier burners because ubiquitous.
>>
>> Anyway, the initial CD rollout was a time of phat and happy profits for the record biz.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Biel" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:14 PM
>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] DATs DELETED but not LPs (was: 15/16 Recording Speed)
>>
>>
>>> John -- apology accepted, especially since I am a fan of Chance!
>>>
>>> On 1/12/2011 6:17 PM, Scott wrote:
>>>> I have often wondered if modern technology might recover some of the lost
>>>> audio.... Scott
>>>
>>> You're not the only one, and I think they had another look at the tapes a couple of years ago, but the "Rose Mary Woods Stretch" was a bit too efficient. By the way, that famous photo had an amusing use on the cover of the August 1989 Schwann CD catalog under the headline "EXTRA! DATs DELETED!!!" They had decided to give up on the viability of the pre-recorded DAT and CD-3 formats, and the editor said in removing the listings this position was no less awkward than was Ms. Woods'. The also printed a 1971 letter she had written them on White House stationery giving Nixon's thanks for a copy of the catalog.
>>>
>>> Of added interest they next included a commentary "Vanishing Vinyl (... or the short run prospects of the long-playing record)". With insider evidence, they accuse the industry of market manipulation by deleting popular LP series that were selling well and instituting disadvantageous non-return policies for retailers. "Although the CD revolution has been -- to some extent -- consumer-driven, the LP decline has been, to a degree, industry manipulated." They pledged to continue listing LPs and cassettes in their quarterly Schwann guide.
>>>
>>> Mike Biel [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Spencer
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 5:12 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] 15/16 Recording Speed
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> I truly value your contribution to this list and your long-standing
>>>> knowledge of recorded history, and I have enjoyed reading your posts for
>>>> years. I felt as the last paragraph in your post was somewhat off topic and
>>>> that prompted my post.
>>>>
>>>> In retrospect it was most likely a knee-jerk response, because to this day I
>>>> still can't understand all of the reasoning/ logic (or lack of therein) and
>>>> other motives that created these recordings - it simply baffles my mind (and
>>>> even though I'm old, I wasn't old enough to vote for Nixon, so there is no
>>>> love lost...).
>>>>
>>>> I too know several individuals involved with the playback/ recovery of the
>>>> Nixon tapes and find the work (and their work environment) a case study in
>>>> archival education.
>>>>
>>>> My sincere apologies to you, I had no idea that you also played a hand in
>>>> the recording/ playback/ restoration of these tapes. As they begin to come
>>>> to light in the Nixon Library, I'm hugely interested in what is presented to
>>>> the public.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> John Spencer
>>>> www.bmschace.com
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 12, 2011, at 3:10 PM, Michael Biel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/12/2011 2:23 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
>>>>>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> beauty is in the eye of the beholder as is the experience of
>>>>>> politically loaded information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike mentioned these tapes, because they are some of the technically
>>>>>> best documented in modern history. This is pure documentation, and no
>>>>>> mention of the need to obtain it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> George
>>>>> Thank you, George. John, I RESENT your implication that there was
>>>> ANYTHING political in my mentioning the Nixon tapes because a close friend
>>>> designed and installed the replay equipment used on these tapes, I have seen
>>>> that set-up (George might have been there too), a number of other friends of
>>>> mine have been involved over the years in the technical analysis of the
>>>> tapes AND SOME OF THEM ARE ON THIS LIST.
>>>>> Mike Biel [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> John Spencer wrote (why?):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps you could google for an answer to your question below
>>>>>>> without inserting a political slant to the list-serve that has
>>>>>>> nothing to do with what the original question was posed about?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Spencer
>>>>>>> www.bmschace.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 12, 2011, at 12:31 PM, Michael Biel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did the Nixon White House tapes use it?
>>>>
>>>
>>
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