Tom,

I only responded because it made no sense to me to replace the guts of a 
ribbon mic with a condenser purely to upgrade the sound of the mic.  As 
it turns out it was more for the visual.

Regarding old mics , I'd rather use my ears than read a spec sheet. 
Specs mean nothing if the mic sounds good.  We have two SM-81's.  One 
manufactured in the late seventies or early eighties.  The other dates 
to the late 90's or early 2000's.  This model has never changed 
according to Shure.  Yet, both sound completely different.  This 
information demonstrates your point.  But here is the catch.  The older 
one sounds better.  It is fuller where the newer one is more toppy.  Do 
I want to have the older one brought up to spec? No way.  I love how it 
sounds.  This also illustrates that you can't trust that a commonly used 
mic is always going to sound the same from studio to studio.

Our almost 70 year old 77B has never been restored.  Unless some bozo 
blows into it, we are not interested in having it "repaired" or brought 
up to spec.  It sounds great as is.  When it comes to old mics, it boils 
down to knowing *your* mic well enough to make the knowledgeable 
decision as to what instrument to use it on or room to use it in.

Angie Dickinson Mickle
Avocado Productions
Broomfield, CO
www.avocadoproductions.com
800-246-3811

Visit us on Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=118773287678
Or Twitter
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Tom Fine wrote:
> I have to put a little backspin on this notion.
> 
> Yes, when they are in good working order, the famous vintage mics sound 
> great and are very useful when their "flavor" is desired. However, I've 
> had some interesting conversations with the guys who restore them and 
> it's surprising how many un-restored, damaged, ancient mics are in use 
> in famous and semi-famous recording situations today. One of the better 
> makers of modern condenser mics explained to me how the gold sputtering 
> can't help but start coming off the older European mics because the 
> material it was sputtered onto becomes brittle and warps/shrinks with 
> age. In the case of the ribbon mics, things like rubber, fabric and the 
> ribbons themselves change over time, especially when exposed to breath 
> and spittle. The mics become less uniform in their response and less 
> sensitive overall, a former RCA technician still in the restoration 
> business told me.
> 
> So yes, an old Neumann, AKG, RCA or other famous mic is very desireable 
> today, because they sound good when they work properly. But "work 
> properly" is the key term here, and just because something looks good 
> doesn't mean it works to its published specs.
> 
> Also, I'm sure there are many recordists on this list who would prefer a 
> modern less-colored mic for what they are doing. If you look at the 
> published curves on these old mics, there was a lot of coloration 
> built-in, which is desireable to some and undesireable to others. I 
> would suggest that modern recording methods, which are essentially 
> noiseless and offer very wide dynamic and frequency range, emphasize the 
> coloration on these old mics more than back-in-the-day recording 
> methods. Again, whether that's a plus or a minus depends on the 
> situation and the user.
> 
> -- Tom Fine
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Dickinson Mickle" 
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for recording in the 
> late 1920s?
> 
> 
>> The couple of instances given were understandable. 25 years ago, these 
>> mics were probably not that desirable. But to tout improvements in 
>> sound would not be a selling point today.
>>
>> Angie Dickinson Mickle
>> Avocado Productions
>> Broomfield, CO
>> www.avocadoproductions.com
>> 800-246-3811
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook
>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=118773287678
>> Or Twitter
>> http://twitter.com/AvocadoProd
>>
>> Dan Nelson wrote:
>>> Im with you Scott, my mic collection for big band sessions have 77dx, 
>>> 47's, BK5's. All have that warm ribbon sound on the right sections.
>>> dnelsonward
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for recording in 
>>>> the late 1920s?
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 9:03 PM
>>>> Me too. I have U-87's and 414's and
>>>> many others, but the unmodified but
>>>> restored BK-5's and Dx-77's I have are terrific all by
>>>> themselves.  I admit,
>>>> it took a while to find the right person with original RCA
>>>> parts down to the
>>>> wind screen liner material to keep them properly... But some things are
>>>> just not replaceable with a look alike. There are retired
>>>> guys out there
>>>> still that have the bits and knowledge you need.
>>>>
>>>> If it is a music video they are to appear in, the original
>>>> parts serve as
>>>> well as the look-alikes. If you want to record... Well, the
>>>> right mic
>>>> regardless of vintage for the a source material is what is
>>>> order. No one
>>>> needs to know what they look like.....
>>>>
>>>> YMMV !
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> On Behalf Of Angie Dickinson Mickle
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:47 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>>> recording in the late
>>>> 1920s?
>>>>
>>>> Louis,
>>>> Why would you do that?  It seems to me that if someone
>>>> wanted the sound of a
>>>> 414, they'd just rent a 414.
>>>>
>>>> Angie Dickinson Mickle
>>>> Avocado Productions
>>>> Broomfield, CO
>>>> www.avocadoproductions.com
>>>> 800-246-3811
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=118773287678
>>>> Or Twitter
>>>> http://twitter.com/AvocadoProd
>>>>
>>>> Louis Hone wrote:
>>>>> A crystal microphone that sounds good ???  I
>>>> can't comment on this
>>>>> actual broadcast, but I wouldn't go with looks
>>>> alone:  I have several
>>>>> vintage microphones that I rent out and some of them I
>>>> have modified, so
>>>> that the
>>>>> guts are AKG 414s or Neumann U-87, or
>>>> KM-84s.   So they may look like RCA
>>>>> 44s or RCA 77s or RCA BK5s  but they sound very
>>>> different.
>>>>> Louis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List 
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> On Behalf Of Daniel Roth
>>>>> Sent: 2 février 2011 14:19
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>>> recording in the
>>>>> late 1920s?
>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to recall a Fresh Air broadcast in the mid-90's
>>>> with the
>>>>> Squirrel Nut Zippers in which the producers employed a
>>>> vintage
>>>>> Philmore Crystal Microphone from the 20's. The entire
>>>> room was
>>>>> captured by this one mic and it sounded tremendously
>>>> authentic, despite
>>>> the FM broadcast.
>>>>> ------
>>>>> Dan Roth
>>>>> Audio Technician
>>>>> Walter J Brown Media Archives and
>>>>> Peabody Awards Collection
>>>>> University of Georgia
>>>>> Main Library
>>>>> Athens, GA
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List 
>>>>> [[log in to unmask]]
>>>> on behalf of Tom Fine
>>>>> [[log in to unmask]]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 12:53 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>>> recording in the
>>>>> late 1920s?
>>>>>
>>>>> Start with engineer Raymond Sooey's journal:
>>>>> http://www.davidsarnoff.org/soo-maintext.html
>>>>>
>>>>> He may have run the very sessions you are asking
>>>> about.
>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Kathryn Hobgood Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 12:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>>> recording in the
>>>>> late 1920s?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi folks, I am wondering if anyone has a resource
>>>> recommendation that
>>>>> would
>>>>>> discuss how a band would record in the late 1920s?
>>>> (Specifically for
>>>>>> Victor.) My colleague here in New Orleans tells me
>>>> that the
>>>>> instrumentalists
>>>>>> would arrange themselves around a microphone in a
>>>> semicircle, the
>>>>>> loudest instruments being staggered further away.
>>>> The vocalist,
>>>>>> meanwhile, would have his/her/their own mic some
>>>> distance from the
>>>>>> band, and the two lines would run straight to the
>>>> machine. Does this
>>>>>> sound accurate to you? I need to verify this setup
>>>> and would love some
>>>> resource suggestions.
>>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Kathryn Hobgood Ray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> 504.650.1238
>>>>>> http://www.snoozerquinn.com
>>>>>>
>>>>> =
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