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ARSCLIST  February 2011

ARSCLIST February 2011

Subject:

Re: How would a band be setup for recording in the late 1920s?

From:

Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 3 Feb 2011 11:18:44 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (234 lines)

I have to put a little backspin on this notion.

Yes, when they are in good working order, the famous vintage mics sound great and are very useful 
when their "flavor" is desired. However, I've had some interesting conversations with the guys who 
restore them and it's surprising how many un-restored, damaged, ancient mics are in use in famous 
and semi-famous recording situations today. One of the better makers of modern condenser mics 
explained to me how the gold sputtering can't help but start coming off the older European mics 
because the material it was sputtered onto becomes brittle and warps/shrinks with age. In the case 
of the ribbon mics, things like rubber, fabric and the ribbons themselves change over time, 
especially when exposed to breath and spittle. The mics become less uniform in their response and 
less sensitive overall, a former RCA technician still in the restoration business told me.

So yes, an old Neumann, AKG, RCA or other famous mic is very desireable today, because they sound 
good when they work properly. But "work properly" is the key term here, and just because something 
looks good doesn't mean it works to its published specs.

Also, I'm sure there are many recordists on this list who would prefer a modern less-colored mic for 
what they are doing. If you look at the published curves on these old mics, there was a lot of 
coloration built-in, which is desireable to some and undesireable to others. I would suggest that 
modern recording methods, which are essentially noiseless and offer very wide dynamic and frequency 
range, emphasize the coloration on these old mics more than back-in-the-day recording methods. 
Again, whether that's a plus or a minus depends on the situation and the user.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Dickinson Mickle" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for recording in the late 1920s?


> The couple of instances given were understandable. 25 years ago, these mics were probably not that 
> desirable. But to tout improvements in sound would not be a selling point today.
>
> Angie Dickinson Mickle
> Avocado Productions
> Broomfield, CO
> www.avocadoproductions.com
> 800-246-3811
>
> Visit us on Facebook
> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=118773287678
> Or Twitter
> http://twitter.com/AvocadoProd
>
> Dan Nelson wrote:
>> Im with you Scott, my mic collection for big band sessions have 77dx, 47's, BK5's. All have that 
>> warm ribbon sound on the right sections.
>> dnelsonward
>>
>> --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for recording in the late 1920s?
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 9:03 PM
>>> Me too. I have U-87's and 414's and
>>> many others, but the unmodified but
>>> restored BK-5's and Dx-77's I have are terrific all by
>>> themselves.  I admit,
>>> it took a while to find the right person with original RCA
>>> parts down to the
>>> wind screen liner material to keep them properly... But some things are
>>> just not replaceable with a look alike. There are retired
>>> guys out there
>>> still that have the bits and knowledge you need.
>>>
>>> If it is a music video they are to appear in, the original
>>> parts serve as
>>> well as the look-alikes. If you want to record... Well, the
>>> right mic
>>> regardless of vintage for the a source material is what is
>>> order. No one
>>> needs to know what they look like.....
>>>
>>> YMMV !
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> On Behalf Of Angie Dickinson Mickle
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:47 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>> recording in the late
>>> 1920s?
>>>
>>> Louis,
>>> Why would you do that?  It seems to me that if someone
>>> wanted the sound of a
>>> 414, they'd just rent a 414.
>>>
>>> Angie Dickinson Mickle
>>> Avocado Productions
>>> Broomfield, CO
>>> www.avocadoproductions.com
>>> 800-246-3811
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook
>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=118773287678
>>> Or Twitter
>>> http://twitter.com/AvocadoProd
>>>
>>> Louis Hone wrote:
>>>> A crystal microphone that sounds good ???  I
>>> can't comment on this
>>>> actual broadcast, but I wouldn't go with looks
>>> alone:  I have several
>>>> vintage microphones that I rent out and some of them I
>>> have modified, so
>>> that the
>>>> guts are AKG 414s or Neumann U-87, or
>>> KM-84s.   So they may look like RCA
>>>> 44s or RCA 77s or RCA BK5s  but they sound very
>>> different.
>>>> Louis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> On Behalf Of Daniel Roth
>>>> Sent: 2 février 2011 14:19
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>> recording in the
>>>> late 1920s?
>>>>
>>>> I seem to recall a Fresh Air broadcast in the mid-90's
>>> with the
>>>> Squirrel Nut Zippers in which the producers employed a
>>> vintage
>>>> Philmore Crystal Microphone from the 20's. The entire
>>> room was
>>>> captured by this one mic and it sounded tremendously
>>> authentic, despite
>>> the FM broadcast.
>>>> ------
>>>> Dan Roth
>>>> Audio Technician
>>>> Walter J Brown Media Archives and
>>>> Peabody Awards Collection
>>>> University of Georgia
>>>> Main Library
>>>> Athens, GA
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [[log in to unmask]]
>>> on behalf of Tom Fine
>>>> [[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 12:53 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>> recording in the
>>>> late 1920s?
>>>>
>>>> Start with engineer Raymond Sooey's journal:
>>>> http://www.davidsarnoff.org/soo-maintext.html
>>>>
>>>> He may have run the very sessions you are asking
>>> about.
>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kathryn Hobgood Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 12:17 PM
>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How would a band be setup for
>>> recording in the
>>>> late 1920s?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks, I am wondering if anyone has a resource
>>> recommendation that
>>>> would
>>>>> discuss how a band would record in the late 1920s?
>>> (Specifically for
>>>>> Victor.) My colleague here in New Orleans tells me
>>> that the
>>>> instrumentalists
>>>>> would arrange themselves around a microphone in a
>>> semicircle, the
>>>>> loudest instruments being staggered further away.
>>> The vocalist,
>>>>> meanwhile, would have his/her/their own mic some
>>> distance from the
>>>>> band, and the two lines would run straight to the
>>> machine. Does this
>>>>> sound accurate to you? I need to verify this setup
>>> and would love some
>>> resource suggestions.
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kathryn Hobgood Ray
>>>>>
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>> 504.650.1238
>>>>> http://www.snoozerquinn.com
>>>>>
>>>> =
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3418 -
>>> Release Date:
>>>> 02/02/11 02:34:00
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security,
>>> version of virus
>>>> signature database 5841 (20110202) __________
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>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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>> (20110202) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
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>>
>>
>>
> 

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