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ARSCLIST  April 2011

ARSCLIST April 2011

Subject:

Re: Multitrack/35mm Film Soundtrack Recording History (Was - Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details)

From:

Louis Hone <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 3 Apr 2011 09:19:18 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

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text/plain (120 lines)

Hi

 

Great article but I was wondering if this was a typo:

 

When I was a projectionist in 1954 on the Ft. Hood Army base, our main theater was newly outfitted with Dolby surround,

 

 

If I recall correctly, in 1954 Ray Dolby was still at Stanford studying for his B. S. in electrical engineering and in 1965 founded Dolby Labs. 

 

Or is it me that is misreading or misinterpreting the article ?

 

Louis Hone

 

 

 

From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Roderic G Stephens
Sent: 2 avril 2011 16:35
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Multitrack/35mm Film Soundtrack Recording History (Was - Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details)

 

Hi Tom and All,
Tom, I believe we're talking about the differences about what happened when.  Are you referencing an earlier or later time regarding the Columbia setup? I may not have stated clearly what I'd experienced in my career on dubbing and scoring stages from the '50s to the '90s, but what I meant to say was that there was to me a clear progression in the studios from the changeover from optical tracks to 35mm magnetic fullcoat/3-stripe soundtracks, and then to the later use of multitrack recorders. I worked in all of the major studios during those years, so I think I do have first hand knowledge of much of what we're discussing.  As an illustration of the continued use of 35mm even into the '70's, here is an excerpt from an online article by Chris Malone:
"Patton by Jerry GoldsmithThe Patton score was recorded to sprocketed 35mm magnetic film at the 20th Century-Fox scoring stage in Los Angeles (circa 1970, Rod's addition). Douglas O. Williams is likely to have engineered the Academy Award winning original sound
 mix.Magnetic film runs at the rate of 18 IPS and does posses many sonic characteristics that make it attractive for sound recording. Due to the track surface area (in the order of quarter-inch) and flux density, 35mm magnetic film has the capability to capture a very wide dynamic range and high frequency response.Unfortunately, magnetic film tends to lose these high frequencies over the years through playback and decomposition where the magnetic oxide delaminates from the backing film surface. Furthermore, long term storage often results in shrinkage and warping that produces appalling wow artefacts during playback. The application of digital noise reduction by
 Dan Hersch in mastering the Film Score Monthly CD presentation has further reduced the high frequency reach.The Patton album re-recording was engineered by John Richards at the Cine-Tele Sound (CTS) studios in Bayswater, London. The recording was made to magnetic tape, most likely half-inch at 15 IPS, and probably encoded with Dolby-A.Recording tape is a far more stable, predictable and workable medium. With exception of some stock from the mid 1970s to early 80s (such as Ampex), tape is exceptionally stable in storage.It would be wonderful to see a CD issue of the invigorating Patton album re-recording from 1970. To my ears the only beneficial tweak would be a tasteful gain in the lower registers to more evenly distribute tone across the frequency spectrum." There is more interesting  information on Malone's web site:http://www.malonedigital.com/recorded.htmOf course, Disney used optical sound tracks for his visionary multichannel "Fantasia"
 (1940), so when 35mm mag. came in, it was a natural and better way when Fox began its CinemaScope format to create stereophonic three track scores and magnetic Dolby surround tracks . When I was a projectionist in 1954 on the Ft. Hood Army base, our main theater was newly outfitted with Dolby surround, and the projectors were updated with the "penthouse" mag. head array to play the mag. striped release prints. Later, of course, Dolby optical proved to be a better answer. In my experience, many of the sound departments initially didn't own multitracks, but rented them for sessions as needed whereas the dubbing and scoring stages all had access to 35mm recorders already part of the evolving sound equipment.  This was the case at the famous Goldwyn sound department with its legendary stage seven that was used by many outside production companies to record their scores, because of its wonderful acoustics (see Malone's article).  Capitol Records did use
 it many times for large orchestral and choral sessions as did other labels such as Sinatra's Reprise. While working on the lot in the '60's, I saw them roll in a rental Ampex for such sessions while 35mm still tended to be used for major film production and post-production.   My final comment is that, although later many scores were recorded on multitrack machines, for the music editor it was
 necessary for transfers to be made to 35mm for editing and preparing the edited music reels to synch up with the dialogue and effects reels for the dubbing stage. Mutitrack can synch up to 35mm units, but that is through chase systems using time code. Also, the later ability to "rock and roll" with three phase 35mm interlock systems made the whole dubbing operation a lot easier for the mixers, but if multitracks were online there would be a wait time for them to recue.  There may be better chase systems today, but that was then.  I've been on dubbing and scoring stages where multitracks were also used as a safety backup protection for sessions or for future soundtrack marketing.  One way or the other, in those days (I know that with today's digital systems, everything has changed) material on multitracks would be transferred to 35mm mag. for any further use editorial in post-production editing.  Tom, it would be interesting for you to comment on the
 use by your dad of 35mm 3-track recorders via the "mobile sound truck" for Mercury in Europe such as Byron Janis recording of the Prokofiev and Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos in Moscow  in 1962. Also, Everest used 3-track film for their early albums, and according to this article sold their Westrex machines to your dad when they went out of business.  http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=4810
According to this article, Command Records was the first to switch to 35mm 3-track recording:http://www.bsnpubs.com/abc/command.html
Thanks for this interesting line of exploration and knowledge.
Rod

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Tom Fine
 <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Fw: RE: [ARSCLIST] Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 5:19 PM

Guys, I have now seen photos of Columbia's setup in Hollywood. They recorded to 3-channel TAPE, not film, using their in-house modified Ampex 300 decks. They had a mixing board, also looks custom built. It had three slider faders per channel, look like they could be Langevin or Cinema Magnetics made. There is also a 19" space built to the left of the mixer surface that seems to have Pultec or other EQ or filter units. I'm not sure if these were patched in or were in line from the mixing busses. There are three meters on the mixer desk. From photos of the sessions, I counted at least 7 mic stands, possibly more. There seem to be three or four in front and then "fill-ins" around the percussion and woodwinds. I
 think this is similar to how RCA worked with Chicago and Boston in the same era.

John McClure "remixed" the tapes for the CD reissues in the 90's and early 2000's. I am assuming that means the tapes were 3-channel as in left-center-right tracks. The mic setup seems to support that idea, but of course I'd need to see engineering documents from the sessions to say that definitively.

As for "typical" Hollywood scoring, I asked noted film restoration guy Bob Harris about this and he told me that each studio did things slightly differently, but it was generally accepted practice to have left-center-right music mixes, which would then be mixed with sound effects and dialog. As for recording the music mix, Bob said that it depended on what the music was doing. Sometimes, if an effect requiring "spotlighting" a certain instrument or group of instruments within an orchestral score, some or many mics would be used, but for general orchestral
 recording the mic'ing was generally minimal. That said, photos I've seen of recording consoles on scoring stages from as early as the 1950's show options for many inputs per channel. Many mics were definitely used for more pop-ish scoring, but "many" is a relative term. In the early 1960's, a dozen mics was "many." By the early 1970's, Columbia was winning Grammy awards for classical records made with 36 microphones.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderic G Stephens" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 7:13 PM
Subject: [ARSCLIST] Fw: RE: [ARSCLIST] Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details


Bob, I'm forwarding this to the list, since our exchange was limited
 to the two of us, because our emails weren't copied to the list. O.K? Rod

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Bob Olhsson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Bob Olhsson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: [ARSCLIST] Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details
To: "'Roderic G Stephens'" <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 4:06 PM

That’s my understanding too. I believe RCA had a 7 channel optical recorder during the ‘30s. Bob Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TNMastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality ControlOver 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!615.562.4346 http://www.bobolhsson.com http://audiomastery.com From: Roderic G Stephens [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 5:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details If I'm not wrong, music scoring was done primarily as three track (channels) recording when magnetic 35mm came in. Of course, additional mikes could be mixed in, but in my experience the norm was to lay down three mikes to 35mm 3-stripe raw for later EQing and editing in post-production. After multitrack Ampexes came to be proven, the scores were recorded to both depending on requirements, but again "laid down" raw for later editing which was done by music
 editors on 35mm. Of course, multiple 3-stripes could be "hung" during a session for additional mixing and backup. Since most of the Hollywood studios were set up on dubbing stages for a such a standard, music editors, mixers, producers and directors were used to using primarily 35mm recording no matter what studio. Again, this is in my experience as a motion picture editor. Please correct me on any
points for my further edification. Rod

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Bob Olhsson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Bob Olhsson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony stereo-era recording details
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday,
 April 1, 2011, 7:37 AM-----Original Message-----
>From Tom Fine: "...about half of the band was Hollywood freelancers, the
rest from the LA Philharmonic..."

It's worth noting that those "Hollywood freelancers" included the absolute
cream of Europe's orchestral musicians (who had fled the war) that any of
the nation's leading symphony orchestras would have given anything to be
able to afford.

My understanding is that Hollywood scoring sessions typically used no more
than four microphones. I also wouldn't assume that most of the forest of
microphones seen in pictures of the Columbia sessions were in use at any
given time. On union orchestral sessions it's lots cheaper to switch mikes
than to move them!

Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.562.4346 http://www.bobolhsson.com http://audiomastery.com 

  _____  

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