Yep, and by reading other emails it seems like a pretty trust worthy 
method. Wonder if they have one XXXXL size. :-P
Shai

בתאריך 02/20/12 5:46 AM, ציטוט Tom Fine:
> Hi Shai:
>
> Unfortunately, on an un-policed list, you sometimes get a bile explosion.
>
> Anyway, the arguments I've heard against the American Harvest are 
> about the same as what the Escalade dealer will say when you tell him 
> you bought the Tahoe. "But you NEED that gold-plated steering wheel." 
> Yeah, right.
>
> As I said, though, many ways to solve the problem, everyone should 
> choose what makes them happy. I choose to use and advocate a simple, 
> cost-effective and time-tested one.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] ovens for baking tapes
>
>
> The problem is that I really feel like this last email from Jim is not
> worth the answer it deserves. I usually like the forum because it is
> about people sharing knowledge, but Jim has just lashed out at me and
> all those who do think that spending money on a pair of good headphone
> makes more sense than spending a lot more than 500$ on a lab oven. When
> I shopped around, I couldn't find an oven that was large enough for
> under 4k$. So I bought a different kind of oven, that has so far baked
> thousands of tapes, both audio and video, and cost me much less. A I
> will be happy to back that up in court. Has anyone on this list ever had
> a problem with tapes that were baked in a dehydrator? If I am not
> mistaken, one of the first advocates of this practice was Eddie Ciletti
> back in 1998 ("If I knew you were coming I would have baked a tape"),
> and he is one smart man. So please, if you have nothing nice to say,
> please leave this forum clean where it's nice to visit and read and
> share and not feel angry, intimidated or p@#$%ed off.
>
> And yes, we are professionals.
> Shai Drori, who among other projects was trusted with the only surviving
> copy of the recording of the Israeli declaration of independence, and
> the original tapes of the Eichmann police interrogation and trial.
>
> בתאריך 02/20/12 4:10 AM, ציטוט Jim Lindner:
>> George's comments are fair enough because I may have not been clear 
>> on the second because I did not want to repeat the first caution.  I 
>> wrote 2 emails and did caution against getting an oven that had been 
>> abused, and since my comments were spread over 2 emails it may have 
>> not been crystal clear. So - yes. ovens ARE available at very 
>> reasonable prices on Ebay and one should qualify any used oven 
>> including ones that you could buy on Ebay to make sure that they have 
>> not been abused or used in an industrial process that could have 
>> caused contamination. The idea is that you make sure that the oven 
>> you get is clean and performing as it should it you get an oven on 
>> Ebay - or anywhere else. I just looked again, and although I did not 
>> count each one - it seemed that about half of the listings - there 
>> are over 700 of them were under $1000 and there were many under $500. 
>> So I think is possible to find an oven that both works and has not 
>> been abused and suitable for the task at hand for extremely 
>> reasonable funds - even for the struggling remastering studio.
>>
>> I find it amazing that some of the comments here are from people who 
>> are audio aficionados and likely could tell you not only where the 
>> fly was in the room but what he had for lunch based on the flutter of 
>> his wings....  argue for a process that has absolutely no precision 
>> with nothing whatsoever to back it up. And the logic is - "horses for 
>> horses"? We are talking about $200 difference to have a real tool and 
>> not something made to dry out beef jerky.
>>
>>   So the argument is to use something never designed to do the task, 
>> no precision at all, with absolutely nothing including the 
>> manufacturers recommendations to support the activity. With a lab 
>> oven it is trivial to actually know what you are doing, and with a 
>> food dehydrator you have absolutely nothing - and to save uh - $200? 
>> And that is "fancy". You buy a cartridge for how many hundreds, how 
>> much do you spend on the stylus, and $200 instead of $59 is excessive 
>> expenditure. I mean can you guys really say this with a straight 
>> face? Explain this to me or a customer. You want to charge me as a 
>> customer $200 to transfer a tape and you are using a $59 dehydrator 
>> on MY stuff? No - don't think that will be happening. And the logic 
>> is -  it works? Can you serious expect that to hold up when you are a 
>> professional? I mean you actually do this as a business - and one day 
>> a clients tape will not play back - and you will have baked it in 
>> your food dehydrator and they will sue you for gross negligence and 
>> you seriously expect that this will hold up? Can you imagine what an 
>> idiot you will look like? You take a clients "priceless" master and 
>> put it in a food dehydrator - do you think the insurance company will 
>> stand behind you on that?
>>
>> Let's call up the manufacturer. Ring Ring - acme dehydrator company - 
>> hi could I speak to the sales department please?
>> Yes, can you please tell me if you recommend your food dehydrator for 
>> drying out audio tapes? What is an audio tape? No - it isn't food. Ah 
>> then you dont recommend it then.
>>
>> And what is the performance range of your dehydrator? Oh - you do not 
>> specify any? Really. Do you test any of them for performance in any 
>> range? No. Oh - and could you tell me how much you pay for the 
>> thermocouple in your dehydrator - oh, you dont know - one tenth of a 
>> cent maybe. Ok - thanks have a nice day.
>>
>> Can you imagine what will happen to you? Can you for a moment think 
>> that doing something like that is professional or responsible? Just 
>> "because it works"? Is that the criteria for tools in this field? Is 
>> this a professional talking? I mean are you going to continue to 
>> defend this absurd position? This is the most fun I have had in days!
>>
>> I think the same logic can be applied to head phones - I should use 
>> the ones that United sells me for $1 on the next flight for 
>> remastering - after all they work, thousands of people use them every 
>> day to watch movies for hours. They work perfectly well. Everyone 
>> uses them - in fact probably more people use those headphones then 
>> all of the other professional headphones ever sold in history - every 
>> week. So - let's all use airline headphones. Right - same logic? 
>> Problem is you cant hear what you are doing.
>>
>>
>> Jim Lindner
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>    Media Matters LLC.
>>    450 West 31st Street 4th Floor
>>    New York, N.Y. 10001
>>
>> eFax (646) 349-4475
>> Mobile: (917) 945-2662
>>
>> www.media-matters.net
>> Media Matters LLC. is a technical consultancy specializing in 
>> archival audio and video material. We provide advice and analysis, to 
>> media archives that apply the beneficial advances in technology to 
>> collection management.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2012, at 7:57 PM, Tom Fine wrote:
>>
>>> Once again this is a case of horses for courses, as they say. Those 
>>> who wish to pay as much as they want for anything, should do so. The 
>>> fact is, many of us have used simple hot-air food dehydrator ovens 
>>> for years with perfectly fine results (i.e. tapes are playable, do 
>>> not stick or shed while being played). As we know, when it comes to 
>>> the government, only the most expensive and complex solutions will 
>>> do.  And, there is a limitless pile of deficit-spending money, so 
>>> there is a bias for expensive and complex in order to feed the 
>>> "authoritative" image, much like a rapper, athlete or hedge-funder 
>>> will drive an Escalade to boost his "street cred" (yes, this is a 
>>> stereotype meant to illustrate a point, much like the stereotypes 
>>> expressed about those who dare use a simple and inexpensive tool to 
>>> do the same job)
>>>
>>> For an archive, collector or studio on a real-world, limited and 
>>> defined budget, food dehydrators have a long history of doing the 
>>> job of making SSS tapes playable, and conserving budget and time for 
>>> the task of actually preserving and making available audio content. 
>>> And only a fool would use the dehydrator with both food and tapes, 
>>> so that's a stupid stereotypical "joke"/derision made by those who 
>>> like to tell you how much they paid for their fancy toys. Consider 
>>> that their expensive toys are why you pay too much for their 
>>> services, stealing budget from actually preserving and making 
>>> available audio content.
>>>
>>> By the way, the American Harvester dehydrator is quite "repeatable" 
>>> as far as producing playable tapes, many times over many years. 
>>> Results speak for themselves. But again, horses for courses. There 
>>> are more expensive and complex ways to skin the same cat.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Olhsson"<[log in to unmask]>
>>> To:<[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] ovens for baking tapes
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>  From Jim Lindner: "...I freely admit that if I had the 
>>>> opportunity, I would
>>>> take a certain amount of delight as an expert witness dissecting the
>>>> opposition (meaning someone using a food dehydrator being sued for 
>>>> gross
>>>> negligence) if they chose to use a $59 food dehydrator in the 
>>>> treatment of
>>>> clients tapes..."
>>>>
>>>> As it happens I've used both methods. I found precisely what the 
>>>> chemical
>>>> engineer who first suggested substituting a food dehydrator 
>>>> predicted to be
>>>> true. The food dehydrator did less harm to the tapes than the older 
>>>> baking
>>>> methods you are suggesting. Have you done any actual tests to back 
>>>> up your
>>>> claims?
>>>>
>>>> Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
>>>> Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
>>>> Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
>>>> 615.562.4346 http://www.bobolhsson.com http://audiomastery.com
>