LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  September 2012

ARSCLIST September 2012

Subject:

Re: High-end turntable

From:

Clark Johnsen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:21:13 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (198 lines)

What Carl says... I second! Except when he writes that a good TT cannot
improve the quality of music -- well maybe not, but it sure can improve the
quality of performance!

The TTs at Sony were Rockports.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Carl Pultz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I didn't intend to brag to the list about my cool record player, as that
> note was intended just for Tom. But I would like folks to understand that
> there is a benefit to the seeming overkill of high-end players, at least to
> some point of diminishing returns. It's true that expensive record players
> manage to reveal more imperfections in the average LP or 45, but a good one
> will also make the music sound better (better sound, not quality of
> music!).
> Hard to describe but obvious when heard.
>
> Typically, more micro-dynamic detail gets uncovered, so the music sounds
> bigger, more expressive and alive. Loud impulses become cleaner and sharper
> because there is less of the energy lost by absorption in flexing of the
> tonearm structure and its mounting. A decrease in such resonances will also
> make small details apparent and timbres more clear as a bunch of complex
> sympathetic vibrations are not superimposed on the music. BTW, it is those
> vibrations that make valid the idea of a turntable having a "sound" - a
> timbral coloration that overlays everything played on it.
>
> What is most surprising about a good high-end record player is how much
> quieter the background noise becomes. A reasonable explanation can be
> imagined: any steady-state vibration (surface noise, lathe rumble) will
> excite resonances in the tonearm, platter, and plinth structure/materials,
> adding to the amplitude of that unwanted part of the signal. Preventing or
> suppressing those resonances will decrease the noise relative to the music
> vibrations, allowing the music to stand out in greater relief, with
> subjectively lower background noise.
>
> When I read here of the efforts of people trying with software to minimize
> noise from LP transfers, I wonder how much easier they would have it with a
> better turntable system that itself would generate less noise of this sort.
> I can play garage sale records, dusted with a carbon-fiber brush but not
> yet
> cleaned on my VPI machine, usually without any of the stereotypical crackle
> people expect to hear as the sound of records. Not to say there aren't
> relatively inexpensive overachievers. Sadly, too few on today's market.
>
> One of the nice things about microgroove is that you can keep getting more
> and more from it as the playback gets more refined. Are those Living Stereo
> SACDs better than vintage/Classic pressings? Yes, I'm sure they win on
> points - Das Lied von der Erde is completely transformed, so a big grateful
> hug to Mark Donahue. Yet there is some magical historicism to the LP
> experience that is worthwhile, if only for the connection it provides to
> the
> old ways, aspects of the producer's original intent, or to our personal
> memories of those musical discoveries. Or that, absent good remastering,
> it's still the best way to hear many recordings (i.e. Motown, whose CD
> reissues have been unauthentic in my experience).
>
> BTW, maybe someone can comment about the beautiful record player that was
> at
> Sony studios NYC - I can't remember the make. Forssell?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:37 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] High-end turntable
>
> Hi Carl:
>
> You are right about the Philips with floor vibrations. Cheapo feet are the
> reason. I use an old IBM
> typewriter pad that used to sit under the Selectric typewriters so they
> wouldn't vibrate a desk.
> Plus it's on top of a heavy file cabinet sitting on a concrete slab,
> nowhere
> near any woofers. The
> touch-sensitive buttons were a koolio feature in the early 80's (along with
> big hair and
> "Flashdance"), but they get very insensitive over time. I now have to blow
> on my fingertips before
> operating them or they won't sense any touch. I'm not dead, but I do have
> dry hands and fingers. My
> mother (the original owner) had the same problem with those buttons. At her
> house, the turntable was
> in a cabinet that had cement under it and the speakers were in a different
> room, so no vibration
> feedback problems.
>
> In the case of both the Philips and the Technics servo systems, there's
> plenty of feedback to make
> speed accuracy and pitch accuracy if the system is functioning. One system
> that could get tripped up
> was Denon, which had two tape heads and a magnetic ring inside the platter
> as its system. That's
> only about one data point per second (2x 33 1/3 per minute), and some
> people
> can hear the system
> adjust speed on tracking-challenge stuff like fff to ppp on a good
> classical
> recording. I saw that
> tape-head and fixed magnet system used in one other place -- on AutoTec
> tape
> decks, that's how
> motion-sensing was done. Ampex used a light source, strobe wheel and
> light-detector on the AG-440C.
> I was taught old-school about tape spooling, and don't trust any motion
> sensing system. I always
> "rock and roll" to a dead stop, then hit stop. Diverging ...
>
> Anyway, as I've said numerous times, there is only so much "perfection"
> you're going to eek out of
> the _vast_ majority of LP records. Even a modest modern system (due to
> low-noise phono preamps and
> the general availability of decently compliant cartridges) will reveal how
> much rumble and hum and
> hiss is baked into the "golden era" records. Listen on headphones and it
> all
> hangs out. The early
> Westrex stereo cutters were tough beasts to wrangle, and the old lathes
> were
> rumbling to varying
> degrees of audibility. Plus the old tape machines had relatively high noise
> floors, old tapes
> hissed, etc. The problem with most "audiophile" records is that the content
> sucks and isn't worth
> hearing, performance-wise and/or recording-wise. Some reissue LPs of more
> recent vintage are
> wonderful exceptions to that admittedly blanket statement.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: "Tom Fine" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] High-end turntable
>
>
> > Pardon the imprecise language, professor. I mean to say the best playback
> of LP I have yet heard.
> > :)
> >
> > You mean the Philips model that used touch-sensitive buttons? I had one
> of
> those around 1978. It
> > was good, but the suspension was very sensitive to footfalls. Speed is
> not
> the only thing that's
> > important, but it should be right. The original Rega Planar 3s ran fast!
> (Purposely?) On how many
> > TTs can you hear the pitch go up after a loud passage? You're right about
> the Slovak stuff -
> > they're toys. I'd rather have what I think you've got - Technics? But
> then
> it would be fun to put
> > yours next to a mid-range Rega, and compare them for overall tunage. The
> Technics would probably
> > win for value, but of course, that's a very personal evaluation.
> >
> > Small things mean a lot with this black magic stuff, and they cost. The
> tonearm is important and
> > so is the way it interacts with the rest of the structure. The fewer you
> sell, the more expensive
> > each is, forming a commercial feedback loop. I know from working in
> high-end retail, that nobody
> > actually pays $170,000 or $35,000 for one of these things, unless the
> buyer's favorite charity is
> > his audio dealer. On the Clearaudio, the customer could demand a 25%
> discount and the dealer would
> > still make $15,000. No dealer would say no, right?
> >
> > Now, the question of value, .... that machine looks absurd. Clearaudio's
> normal stuff pales in
> > comparison to SME's workmanship, but their stuff generally is better than
> VPI or others at below
> > 8k (my buddy is a dealer for those makes and others). The SME's price
> makes some sense given the
> > scope of the market, inherent quality, and the performance you get.
> Seriously. I have owned (of
> > the good ones) Thorens, Luxman, Oracle, Micro Seiki, VPI, Nottingham, and
> now for some years the
> > modest little SME 10. They're all good, all different, and there is a
> hierarchy of reproduction
> > quality that, to me, is worthwhile.
> >
> > In high-end audio, high cost also is its own priority. It is sometimes
> money for nothing and when
> > it is shysterism, that's wrong. I'm okay with your populist sentiment,
> Tom. I've spent most of
> > life on a shoestring and right now Micky and I are literally below
> poverty
> income - only partially
> > by choice. So far, it has made sense to me to have a better TT than a
> car.
> Hope that doesn't
> > change!
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager