LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  November 2012

ARSCLIST November 2012

Subject:

Re: Medinah Temple

From:

Roger Kulp <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Roger Kulp <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 5 Nov 2012 05:43:21 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (204 lines)

John Hunt,as a whole,was right in his forward of the Concert Hall Society book about the late 80s-mid 2000s being a great time to put together a classical record collection from thrift stores,as I did.I went about five years,and found virtually no classical records at all.Then in the last year and a half,in my daily diggings in the Goodwill clearance bins,I have found a few large collections of classical records,coming away with two and three boxloads for under twelve dollars,with a few real rarities in each group The last batch included the Steinberg Bruckner on Command.

Was this not only the last Command Classics,but the last 35mm recording from any label? 1968 is kind of late for 35mm.This was also one of the first recordings to use Dolby.There is an interview on YouTube,of Joseph Silverstein done by Richard Dyer of the Boston Globe.I think it's from a DVD.If you have not heard it,take a listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHgGC3sZTcQ

Roger

 



________________________________
 From: Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Medinah Temple
 
The whole issue with finding a suitable recording venue in Chicago, after Orchestra Hall was ruined, shows that logistics and local politics matter as much or more than acoustics and engineering preferences. It's interesting that, given how acclaimed RCA's Chicago recordings from the 50's and early 60's were, that the orchestra board could be convinced to butcher the acoustic space so much. To some classical music fans, those RCA records were the ultimate examples of the recording art with an American orchestra in an American venue.

Mercury had similar problems in Detroit and Minneapolis, as much politics and logistics as acoustical and engineering decisions.

In Detroit, the Edsel Ford Auditorium was built by and named after the Ford family, which was a primary or the primary sponsor of the Detroit Symphony. From the first time my father set foot in that room, he hated it acoustically. In the mono days, there were tricks that could deployed to make the single-mic technique work, but when stereo recording started, that venue became almost impossible (although there were a few stereo recordings made in the Ford auditorium in the early days of stereo). Old Orchestra Hall, known as the Paradise Theatre in those days, was a better space, but it was literally falling apart and was not in a good part of town. However, many Mercury sessions were done there, leaky roof and all. The room has a nice sound to it, although my father thought it sounded smaller than it was. Then, via several sources, word trickled down about the superb auditorium in Cass Technical High School. It ended up being an almost ideal recording
 venue. The auditorium was in the middle of the huge building, so it was well isolated. There were good and comfortable control-room facilities in the school. And the sound was superb. It's unfortunate that Cass was discovered rather late in the Mercury relationship with Paul Paray and Detroit. But, all or almost all of the 35mm magnetic-film recordings done in Detroit were done at Cass, to the benefit of the sound quality.

In Minneapolis, the Northrop Auditorium was also non-ideal. It turned out to be less ideal for single-mic mono than for stereo. The reason was, it was so cavernous that sound got lost in the huge space. In the mono days, various setups were used, mainly moving the strings out onto the stage apron and, for a couple of sessions, using a tape-delay reverb fed to a big Altec speaker in the rear of the auditorium so as to make the room sound more live. What happened was that the sound dissipated so much that the rear of the omni-directional mic barely caught anything, so the recording sounded too dry. When the technique changed to three spaced omnis, more reverb and room tone was captured, so there was less of a problem. Switching to the Schoeps M201 mic for the single-mic mono also helped a bit because it's more sensitive than a Neumann U-47 and also has a different presence peak that tends to pick up low-level high-frequency information better in that
 setup. Very late in Mercury's relationship with the Minneapolis Symphony, the auditorium at Edison High School, which I think was out in the suburbs, was used. That room had a better sound, it was "warmer" and more detailed. Like Cass, it's a pity it wasn't "discovered" earlier.

A similar search for a good venue took place when Command signed the Pittsburgh Symphony. My father and Enoch Light checked out the orchestra's performance venue, didn't like that. They also didn't like the Syria Mosque, where Capitol had made its Pittsburgh recordings. They found the Soliders and Sailors Hall, which had the unique property of the stage being out into the cavernous space, so the whole room had similar reverberant properties. This worked well for the 6-mic technique that they devised for Command Classics. The Pittsburgh Symphony went on to deliver a very good Beethoven cycle, and a good Brahms cycle, and some other interesting recordings. Alas, Command Classics never sold well, according to later interviews with Enoch Light and others. In the late 60's and early 70's, ABC/MCA kept cheapening the packaging and eventually let Pickwick put out supermarket-counter versions of some records. Later-era ABC re-cuts and pressings are far inferior
 to original-issues.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pultz" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Medinah Temple


> By demonstrating my ignorance, I've learned a lot - thank you Don! Had no
> idea the Martinon Nielsen album was from Orch Hall. I assumed nothing was
> issued from there post renovation, until much later. They did manage to make
> a very effective document, a cult-classic for brass players. What's
> surprising is that the renovators could do so much damage in so little time:
> mid-June to early October.
> 
> I read recently that the Auditorium had been declared impossible by Theodore
> Thomas, and that lead to the building of Orchestra Hall, a more
> appropriately sized venue as well as better sounding. While the Hall was
> loved by audiences and record makers, apparently it was not so hot for the
> players. The shallow stage required the orchestra to spread out wide and
> thin, making it hard for one side to hear the other. In his biography of
> Fritz Reiner, Philip Hart tells the story of the CSO's first visit to
> Boston. Symphony Hall was a revelation, the players saying that it was the
> first time they understood what a great orchestra they had become. They just
> had never heard each other before.
> 
> Would be nice to have confirmation of that story. I bet the Temple was a
> bear for the players, too, though probably in a totally different way.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Donald Tait
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 2:51 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Medinah Temple
> 
>  Both the Dvorak Concerto and its discmate, his Silent Woods (Du
> Pre/Barenboim/CSO) -- recorded November 11, 1970, Medinah Temple.
> 
>  The first Capitol/EMI CSO session was June 25, 1969. Ozawa. Borodin:
> Prince Igor: Polovtsian Dances; Kodaly: Dances from Galanta. Recorded in
> Edman Chapel, Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois. Not issued, and no other
> CSO sessions seem to have been held there. The works were done successfully
> at the sessions of June 30 and July 1, 1969 in Medinah. The rest of the
> Capitol/EMI sessions took place there, through Giulini's Mahler Symphony 1on
> March 30, 1971.
> 
>  The CSO's recording venues after the autumn of 1966 are a sad and slightly
> complicated story, and this all reflects that. In the summer of 1966 the
> Orchestral Association undertook what they described as an "updating" of
> Orchestra Hall. Some things needed it, but the acoustics did not.
> Nonetheless, the acoustics were severely damaged and the resultant sound was
> completely dead. All resonance and reverberation were gone. As someone who
> heard the before-and-after, it was shocking. For everyone. Additionally,
> what had been one of the finest halls in the country for recording was
> rendered useless for it. RCA attempted three sessions there after the
> "renovation:" Nielsen Symphony no. 4 (October 10, 1966) and Helios Overture
> and Massenet Thais Intermezzo (December 3, 1966, all cond. Martinon) and
> March 8, 1967 (Schumann Piano Concerto -- Rubinstein/Giulini). The early
> issues, before artificial reverb was added, are acoustically as dead as the
> proverbial doornail. An almost shocking change from the formerly great
> acoustics and resonance of the empty hall. RCA clearly felt they could no
> longer record the CSO there and had to go elsewhere. The first attempt was
> at the historic Auditorium Theatre on February 15, 1967 with Morton Gould.
> All Ives: Orchestral Set no. 2; Three Places in New England; Robert Browning
> Overture. After that RCA moved to Medinah Temple, first on April 26, 1967
> with Jean Martinon. The rest of their sessions were held there through May
> 16, 1968. They reverted to Orchestra Hall for the Ozawa sessions of July 1
> and 16 and August 9 -- the last ones under the RCA contract.
> 
>  Some of the recordings Carl cited were made in Orchestra Hall before the
> mid-1966 acoustical disaster, not in Medinah Temple. I'll include some he
> didn't cite as well:
> 
>  Morton Gould, Orchestra Hall --
> 
>  Ives: Symphony 1 -- November 6, 1965
>  Ives: The Unanswered Question -- January 31, 1966
>  Ives-Schuman: Variations on "America" -- ditto
> 
>  Orchestra Hall, all on June 18, 1966:
> 
>  Morton Gould/Benny Goodman, clarinet
> 
>  Nielsen: Symphony no. 2
>  Nielsen: Clarinet Concerto
>  Fred Fischer-Gould: "Chicago, that T
oddlin' Town" (Goodman)
> 
>  The first Solti/CSO Decca sessions were held in Medinah Temple on March
> 26, 27, and April 6, 7, 8 1970.
> 
>  Thanks are due to Mike Gray and Steve Smolian, who obtained this
> information and sent it to me for a CSO discography that I unfortunately had
> to abandon preparing.
> 
>  Don Tait
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Pultz <[log in to unmask]>
> To: ARSCLIST <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sun, Nov 4, 2012 9:29 am
> Subject: [ARSCLIST] Medinah Temple
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah - I didn't know about that performance. If it has too much star,
> I'd blame the producer or artist manager rather than Mr. Taylor. I admire
> his work. Was he a contemporary of Frank Abbey? He - they - others? - were
> early on really into purist stereo, using various coincident and M/S pickups
> on Stokowski projects and the Cello Galaxy album.
> 
> I read years ago that an engineer discovered the trick for Medinah Temple of
> micing way up in the ceiling to pick up a meaty reverberance. That must have
> helped to blend together the many spot mics that are evident on most all
> projects made there. IIRC, it was credited to a Decca guy working on the
> first Solti records around 1969, and everybody else copied it. But, the
> first crews in there were RCA, I think, and they also made it work (ie.
> Nielsen 2&4, Ives 1, etc). The EMIs I've heard achieve a more homogeneous,
> more distant sound, better to my taste than the others.
> 
> The Taylor/CSO session I'd most like to hear remastered is the Lutoslawski
> Concerto for Orchestra. That is mind-blowing. The Angel LP (S-36045 c/w
> Janacek Sinfonietta and a nice piece by R.C. Marsh about the sessions) gives
> a hint, but a HMV Concert Classics DMM pressing gets us closer. Worth
> seeking out ED 29 0134 1 if that music hasn't already been put out on silver
> drink coasters. Gathering from that evidence, the first EMI dates were in
> 1969. What's the date on the Dvorak?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 7:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CDJAPAN has remastered Barbirolli
> 
> I got the DuPre Dvorak recording from HDTracks:
> https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HD50999705
> 58852
> (I bought it during one of their frequent 15% off sales)
> 
> It sounds marginally more clear and "weighty" vs. the CD reissue from the
> 90's. This recording was
> done by Carson Taylor, who did many of the U.S. classical recordings for
> EMI/Angel/Capitol in those
> days. Taylor put a coicident stereo mic down at cello level and out in front
> of it, so the cello is
> very forward and on its own, to my ears. I think a cellist would love this
> approach, but a listener
> wanting to hear the whole musical product may prefer the cello better
> blended with the orchestra.
> This way, you hear the vibrating strings and wood very clearly, plus the bow
> strokes. But that then
> diverts your attention somewhat from what the orchestra is doing. In this
> recording, it also sounds
> like the cello is in a different sound-field from the rest of the orchestra,
> because the Medinah
> Temple is reverberant and Taylor put most of his orchestra mics at more
> distance than the cello
> mics. I know this because I have photos taken during the recording session.
> 
> -- Tom Fine
> 
> 
> 
> 

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager