LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  October 2013

ARSCLIST October 2013

Subject:

Re: Compact Discs with lossy compression

From:

Donald Clarke <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:31:58 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (64 lines)

Chuck Nessa and Bob Sunenblick produced a wonderful compilation of all the 78s Charles Mingus made in California in the 1940s - early '50s. Sunenblick even bought one of the obscure labels to get the access, discovered unknown Mingus comps and turned the rights over to his widow. The booklet was a 96-page masterpiece about west coast jazz of the era. This took years and lots of money; the tracks were IMMEDIATELY ripped off by somebody, probably in the microstate of Andorra.

Donald Clarke

On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Tom Fine wrote:

Yeah, but you guys just raised a key issue. My bet is that Rhett's Duane Eddy compilation may have come from overseas. It's a gray-market product from the get-go. Using liberal copyright rules in other countries, producers of cheap compilations get someone to make a quicky transfer of an LP or 45 because they can't license the master tapes. If they did this in the U.S., Australia and a few other places with strict copyrights, they'd be prosecuted as pirates. Naxos is the king of this, operating out of Hong Kong and selling cheapo discs made from garage sale LP dubs. Pure junk, but they exist because the labels sit on their vaults and won't invent a viable business plan to unleash all of the contents of their vaults.

Even more insidious than cheapo junk reissues of LP and 45 dubs from gray-market operators overseas is taking a high-quality reissue like a Mosaic box, ripping the CDs and then repackaging them into original album sequences with usually blurry scans of the cover art. There are several jazz reissue "labels" based in Europe that specialize in this practice. It's worse than LP dubs because they are stealing Mosaic's investment in quality remastering and Mosaic buyers are thus subsidizing these gray-market goods. Again, if the record labels would do this themselves, after Mosaic sells out its licensed number of sets, then at least legitimate copyright owners would be profiting and it's more likely that artists would eventually get whatever royalties they are due.

There's a whole hornet's nest of issues here but it boils down to two big trends. First, consumers want to pay prices that do not tend to allow for a profit margin that can build in quality work on the transfer and mastering end. Second, big record companies tend to make slow, dumb decisions about materials in their vaults because they are set up to chase quarterly hits. These two factors open the door to the gray-market leeches, which further erodes the margins and markets for legitimate reissues.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Clarke" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Compact Discs with lossy compression


> Good point here. It may be impossible to get into vaults or to get to master tapes, but if you're going to put out a cheesy bootleg, it's like the food in a bad restaurant: every foodie I know agrees that it's just as easy to do it better.
> 
> Donald Clarke
> 
> On Oct 1, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Jamie Howarth wrote:
> 
> Agreed w Tom on most points. If we could get a couple grand to do a Duane Eddy it would be done.It doesn't cost much more to do it right than do it wrong.
> 
> The labels will license-out for vinyl physical product, but not digital physical product. If they did the rich hedgie would be backing a new custom label done by us.
> 
> You guys should be making the adamant case that there's a quality floor, and to repackage an existing set of 44/16s as new is sketchy, and certainly that repackaging mp3s is caused for flaming brooms and pitchforks. It is imperative that you guys speak up, and realize that your reissue market may be mispriced - you're Red Seal/Shaded Dog, not Roulette records w ground up labels in the vinyl. And even back then there was honor among some of the thieves. Morris mandated re-used vinyl, Berry mandated against it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please pardon the misspellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm on an iPhone
> 
> On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> I'm assuming Jamie was referring to a filthy-rich hedgefund guy who's also an audiophile. His point was, the guy was willing to pay extra for better audio quality. We already see in the LP market that a healthy niche can exist for people willing to pay more for perceived "better" quality. In the LP niche, I would argue it's as much for the cachet and the nice packaging (a real artifact, as opposed to a cheap-looking commodity product) as for the allegedly "better" sound quality.
>> 
>> There does seem to be an emerging niche for higher-quality digital audio, but most of the excitement is in the now-tiny download niche. For the mainstream market, despite wishes by some of us for things to be otherwise, there simply is not the production budget or profit margin to "do things great", at almost any stage of the process. This is especially true with reissue material, which has a limited end market. Comparing the market for a deluxe Grateful Dead reissue to the market for less-popular (with today's buyers) Duane Eddy is comparing apples and oranges. No reissue producer in his right mind is going to spend very much money putting together a Duane Eddy greatest hits single-CD. He will likely make a very slim margin on it, as is.
>> 
>> That said, it's inexcusable to over-use digital "cleanup" software or use a low-resolution source. My bet is, the source material for the CD that Rhett got is old singles and/or LPs. Some "engineer" decided to go overboard with DSP to "clean up" the surface noise and ticks and pops, used a heavy hand, and ended up with garbage that sounds like bad Napster-era MP3. Most people would probably be surprised how many master tapes are lost or are now unplayable without costly restoration measures (for which there is no budget), so many old-time pop and rock retrospectives are coming off singles and LPs.
>> 
>> I can tell you from personal experience that it is very hard to make the numbers work on a per-disc basis spending more than a handful of thousands of dollars, soup to nuts (transfer to finished authored Red Book disc, hopefully with processed high-rez and Mastered for iTunes download files also). That's a very, very constrained budget. Given that the transfer takes place in real-time, and careful listening must be done before and after, and especially if any DSP is performed, you get to very low wages quickly. So very few projects have the time or budget to go to anything approaching extraordinary strides toward high quality. I don't like it either, but that's the simple reality of today. Ask yourselves, how many of you are willing to pay $25 for a single CD. Adjusted for inflation since 1984, that's the low end of what one should cost today. Given that they tend to sell for under $10, you get what you are willing to pay for. Not enough "hedgies" out there to bend the curve.
>> 
>> -- Tom Fine
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Clarke" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 8:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Compact Discs with lossy compression
>> 
>> 
>>> I'm using this list to improve my vocabulary. Please, sir, what's a hedgie?
>>> 
>>> Donald Clarke
>>> 
>>> On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:23 AM, Jamie Howarth wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here's a brain teaser: I asked a wealthy hedgie what is favorite album is. Ok U2 War... Alright what would you pay for an HD download ... 29.95$.. Ok how much would you pay for a mirror copy of the master tape... 500bucks!!! In a heartbeat.
>>> 
> 

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager