Dear Elisabeth,
I have had the person who posted the original survey requests send me the full list of recipients. Your name was on the list.
This morning I sent the full ISOJAC list a link to the survey, in case someone was missed who should have received it.
Here is the full list of those on the original list. I note that one or two people are listed twice--this would have been because they were on the individual lists of recommended recipients, in addition to being on the ISOJAC list.
Original List:
Steven Bird <[log in to unmask]>,
Doug Whalen <[log in to unmask]>,
Chris Cieri <[log in to unmask]>,
Laura Welcher <[log in to unmask]>,
Anthony Aristar <[log in to unmask]>,
Brian MacWhinney <[log in to unmask]>,
Francois Demay <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
Sue Ellen Wright <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
Serge Gladkoff <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask],
Hans Fenstermacher <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
Loic Dufresne de Virel <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask]
Combined Subsequent Lists:
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask],
Corine Deliot <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask]
Melinda Lyons
Secretary, JAC
ISO 639
On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:29:51 +0200
Elisabeth Porteneuve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Dear Sebastian,
>
> > Therefore a questionnaire has been
> > set up and filled in by several users in the last weeks.
>
>Gérard informed me in the mid of September, that he added my name to the list of people to answer the survey - but I did not receive anything.
>Would you mind, please, confirm that I am on the list, and re-post me the questionnaire?
>It that list of people who was asked to fill the questionaire available?
>
>Thank you very much in advance,
>Elisabeth Porteneuve
>
>
>Le 09/10/2013 10:07, Sebastian Drude a écrit :
>> Dear David,
>>
>> Indeed, in comparison with the task of rethinking and possibly newly
>> setting up the different parts of ISO 639, questions of individual codes
>> are minor.
>>
>> But the larger tasks are also being worked on -- we had fruitful
>> discussions in Pretoria, an ad-hoc working group has been set up, and as
>> one first task we identified that we would need a better understanding
>> of the actual application of ISO codes and of the needs and concerns of
>> the different communities of users. Therefore a questionnaire has been
>> set up and filled in by several users in the last weeks. Christian
>> Galinski can certainly send you more information about the next planned
>> steps if you for some reason failed to receive the updates on this
>> matters in the last months. Are there other people on this list who are
>> not aware of the current developments but should be?
>>
>> In the meantime, the usual business has to go on, even if it is just
>> rearranging chairs -- and I would certainly not compare ISO 639 with the
>> Titanic, at least not after its close encounter with the iceberg.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sebastian Drude
>>
>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and
>> short, this mail may not fulfil all your expectations on form and
>> politeness.
>>
>> --
>>
>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive
>>
>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics
>>
>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone:
>> (+31) 24-3521.470
>>
>> http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian
>>
>> *From:*ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> *On Behalf Of *David Dalby
>> *Sent:* 09 October 2013 09:05
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: letter from Elisabeth Porteneuve dated 26 September 2013
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Elisabeth's letter of 26 September has drawn attention to the
>> fundamental need to define clearly the practical purpose(s) and
>> scientific principles of ISO 639. To my knowledge, her letter has so far
>> been ignored in the current shared discussions of ISOJAC.
>>
>> In fact, after a polite pause of 10 days, technical discussion has now
>> been resumed on how to code the (numerous) ancient and medieval
>> varieties of one specific language. Given the current international,
>> political, practical, cultural and even religious issues involved in the
>> international standardisation and application of language-codes today,
>> this focusing of scholarly attention on the minutiæ of historical forms
>> of Greek might perhaps be compared to the image of "rearranging
>> deckchairs on the Titanic".
>>
>> It would appear that many of the problems of clarity of principle and
>> purpose and of increasing complexity of practice within ISO 639
>> originate from the "alignment" of (1) the original ISO 639 system of
>> 2-letter identifying tags (covering a limited number of written
>> languages, especially for specifying the sources of technical and
>> scientific terms) with (2) the MARC system of 3-letter identifying tags
>> (potentially covering all of the many thousands of named spoken and
>> written "languages" in the world, extant or extinct, especially for the
>> computerised indexing of bilbliographical sources).
>>
>> After 15 years of this alignment, is it not now appropriate for our JAC
>> to review this "joint" enterprise, and to reflect on whether it would be
>> appropriate at least to discuss the possible separation of an
>> (independent ISO) system of 2-letter codes for specific "written
>> languages" (to be defined) and a (MARC + SIL) system of 3-letter codes
>> to cover an open list of all known named "languages", present and past ?
>>
>> If he were still alive, what opinion on this question might be expressed
>> by Eugen Wüster ?
>>
>> With warm greetings to all
>>
>> David (Dalby)
>>
>> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>> *From:*Elisabeth Porteneuve <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, 26 September 2013, 23:51
>> *Subject:* Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association
>> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code
>> elements for the representation of this language name
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I happen to be trilingual, Polish, French and English, with fair
>> capability to read and write Russian Cyrillic.
>>
>> When after the split of former Yugoslavia in 1991, I saw the split of
>> the Serbo - Croatian language code into pieces I could not believe my
>> eyes, so stupid and harmful it was for the entire country, and for
>> everyone. The people in former Yugoslavia speak Southern Slavic, the
>> name of that country means Yugo – South, Slavia – Slavic country.
>>
>> I happen to be involved in building up networks in those old days.
>> After
>> the Berlin Wall failed down on November 9th, 1989, in July 1990 we did
>> connect Poland to EARN/Bitnet, followed up by an enormous wave of
>> connecting all Europeans, with the help of their diasporas from
>> communist era, on both sides of Atlantic Ocean. While the email was
>> simple text at that time, and the most of connected were research and
>> university people, in 1990 you could easily ask question and get
>> correct
>> answer about language used in former Yugoslavia. In 1991 the Internet
>> Society, a formal network of people, started to function.
>>
>> Why you, the ISO 639, you didn’t inquire about language there? Why you,
>> the ISO 639, you did start to allocate language codes for pieces of
>> former Yugoslavia territory, and started years of nonsense, worst,
>> years
>> of troubles nobody needs?
>> Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian – it did happen that Montenegrin is the
>> last one in that split, and now, with all others who received their ISO
>> 639 language codes, there is no more available one for them? Why?
>> Why do
>> you change your own rule in the middle of road?
>>
>> The ISO 639 shall be clearly related to the public interest, a place
>> where scientists, or scholars, or engineers are doing a general purpose
>> activity. In a domain of languages no single human being has a practice
>> of speaking multiple languages going beyond very few, therefore some
>> safeguards should be inherent to that work, such as duty of seeking
>> input of concerned, alive, linguistic group before a code is
>> assigned to
>> that group (to ensure that an alpha-3 or an alpha-2 codes have not an
>> offending meaning for a group in their local language, or to ensure
>> that
>> one given language is not split up into many by whatever political of
>> geographical considerations).
>>
>> I wonder how rules related to the ISO 639 are set, but I trust that due
>> to the participation of national standardization agencies or Federal
>> entity in the case of the US, a care is taken to focus on public
>> interest, with an obligation of modesty of our knowledge, transparency
>> and adaptability.
>>
>> Errare humanum est perseverare diabolicum.
>>
>> Best,
>> Elisabeth Porteneuve
>>
>>
>> Le 26/09/2013 10:08, Mark Davis ☕ a écrit :
>> > This is a long and convoluted thread, but I have a couple of brief comments.
>> >
>> > 1. It is a terrible idea to have a code for Montenegrin. Any in-depth
>> > discussion with people from that area of the world reveals that the
>> > differences between Serbian and Montenegrin are on the order of dialect
>> > differences, not languages. The differences are comparable to those you see
>> > across English or Spanish, and no more different than one encounters
>> > between different parts of Serbia itself.
>> >
>> > Secondly, there is already a well-recognized language subtag (BCP47) for
>> > Montenegrin: sr-ME. Introducing an equivalent to that will simply bring
>> > another opportunity for software breakage, nothing more. So in the
>> > interests of stability, no new code for Montenegrin should be added. (This
>> > is also a dangerous path for the committee to follow; departing from the
>> > pragmatic principles that have governed the assignment codes—especially
>> > those affecting stability—will cause downstream clients to find other
>> > solutions.)
>> >
>> > 2. While the formal title is "Codes for the representation of names of
>> > languages", that is, *and always has been*, recognized as a misnomer. It is
>> > and always has been codes for languages, not their names. (Otherwise, each
>> > alternate name for each language would have required a different code,
>> > which has never been the case.)
>> >
>> > 2. The visual association between a three letter code and a language is of
>> > little importance. These codes are simply internal identifiers. While it is
>> > useful to try to maintain some sort of association, it is in the end, not
>> > particularly significant.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mark <https://plus.google.com/114199149796022210033>
>> > *
>> > *
>> > *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —*
>> > **
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:20 PM, ISO639-3 <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear Gerard et al.,
>> >>
>> >> The one thing no one has mentioned in your discussion is a problem of
>> >> phonology: most of the codes that are pronounceable, and that comprise the
>> >> first letters of a language name are already taken. Also, because of
>> >> phonological frequency of these segments, languages beginning in "B" "K"
>> >> and "M" have few available codes (10 total available for these 3 initial
>> >> letters).
>> >>
>> >> In addition, few of the codes for the 11 languages of interest to Mr. Lang
>> >> have been blocked for use by national languages, but others are not.
>> >>
>> >> I have a function on my system which can query available codes, should you
>> >> need it in the future.
>> >>
>> >> Melinda
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 23 Sep 2013 19:11:41 +0200
>> >> Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 18:10, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit :
>> >>>
>> >>>> Dear John,
>> >>>> I am following your request and relaying our exchanges to the JAC
>> >> Listserv.
>> >>>> By the way, I would be most happy (and maybe some others would also be)
>> >> to have the exact list of the persons on the list that receive the messages
>> >> we exchange.
>> >>>> Bien amicalement.
>> >>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 16:43, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit :
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> OK for me.
>> >>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 16:35, Zagas, John a écrit :
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> I kindly ask you all: Please post these to the JAC Listserv. I do
>> >> not see the reason why this discussion is being restricted to us four. I
>> >> will start posting these messages to the listserv if I continue to be cc'd
>> >> on these.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you very much.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> John Zagas
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Library of Congress
>> >>>>>> Network Development & MARC Standards Office
>> >>>>>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E.
>> >>>>>> Washington, DC 20540-4402
>> >>>>>> USA
>> >>>>>> Phone: 202.707.1153
>> >>>>>> FAX: 202.707.0115
>> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:32 AM
>> >>>>>> To: Sebastian Drude
>> >>>>>> Cc: Galinski Christian; Zagas, John; Lang Gérard
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association
>> >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code elements
>> >> for the representation of this language name
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear Sebastian,
>> >>>>>> If we suppose that every interesting language can be named; and
>> >> better can be attributed at least one autonym, one name in english and also
>> >> one name in french to allow identification without too much ambiguity; then
>> >> we have no problem with the standard's title "Codes for the representation
>> >> of the names of languages". And clearly the codes elements are representing
>> >> a reference name for the underlying language. This does not at all allow
>> >> that many names for the same language will have distinct entries in ISO
>> >> 639, this only says that when new ISO 639 entry is identified by some array
>> >> of names for this language, the code element to be attributed is
>> >> representing the reference language name choosen in this array. Let me also
>> >> add that it seems much more easy to know what is a language name that to
>> >> know what is a language. For example, "Serbo-Croatian" is certainly a name
>> >> of language , but there was clearly no unanimity to introduce an alpha-3
>> >> code element making an ISO 639-2 !
>> >> entry for
>> >>> this name of language when this would have been legally mandatory because
>> >> there existed an alpha-2 code element "sr" that was an ISO 639-1 entry from
>> >> the beginning. If we would want a single code point for each language,
>> >> independant of the different or same names of these languages, we would
>> >> have to turn to a numeric coding scheme.
>> >>>>>> As a statistician, I would say that this is what makes a nomenclature
>> >> richer than a classification.
>> >>>>>> When building a classification, you make hierarchical aggregations of
>> >> elements of the domain you are studying and use classes, so that at each
>> >> level of the hierarchy all classes cover the total domain with a void
>> >> intersection between two distinct classes. Building a nomenclature from a
>> >> classification is using the resources of terminology to give each class of
>> >> each level a distinguishing identifying name allowing to immediately
>> >> recognize what elements can be affected to this class.
>> >>>>>> Bien amicalement.
>> >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 15:42, Sebastian Drude a écrit :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks for the explanations of the mathematical calculus, Gerard.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> As for the name of the standard, codes for names of languages; this
>> >> always has struck me as inadequate.
>> >>>>>> In my perhaps naïve point of view, it is obvious that the codes refer
>> >> to the languages themselves, and that they are normalized additional
>> >> “names” for them, instead of referring to other names.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Otherwise, we would not give different ISO code points for two
>> >> languages who share one English(?) name.
>> >>>>>> Likewise, with good reasons we do not hand out different codes for
>> >> languages that happen to have several alternative names (which holds for
>> >> almost all languages).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> To have a single code point for each LANGUAGE, independent of the
>> >> different or same names of these languages, seems to me to be the very
>> >> point of ISO 639.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Sebastian (Drude)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and
>> >> short, this mail may not fulfil all requirements on form and politeness.
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive
>> >>>>>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics
>> >>>>>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands
>> >>>>>> Email:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone:
>> (+31) 24-3521.470
>> >>>>>>http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>> >>>>>> Sent: Samstag, 14. September 2013 16:28
>> >>>>>> To: Gérard Lang-Marconnet
>> >>>>>> Cc: Sebastian Drude; Galinski Christian; Zagas John
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association
>> >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code elements
>> >> for the representation of this language name
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Please excuse my mistake.
>> >>>>>> Evidently 3.N.N.(N-26) must be replaced by 3.N.N.(26-N).
>> >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>>> Le 14 sept. 2013 à 15:46, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear Sebastian,
>> >>>>>> The subject and the meaning of this combinatorial exercise is as
>> >> follows.
>> >>>>>> Considering a reference language name whose script in the latin
>> >> alphabet uses exactly N distinct letters (for example "english" uses 7
>> >> distinct letters), let us say that a three-letter code element written with
>> >> the 26 letters of the latin alphabet has a "strong visual association" with
>> >> this language name if every one of the three letters in the code element is
>> >> a letter taken in the language name (we do not look only for
>> >> "abbreviations", so that we do not ask the order of the occurences of the
>> >> letters in the code element to be the same that in the language name and we
>> >> allow the same letter to occur two or three times in the code element even
>> >> in the case that there is only one occurence in the reference language
>> >> name. There are exactly N.N.N such code elements having a strong visual
>> >> association with a reference language name written with N letters.
>> >>>>>> Now, in the case that no such code element is available, or judged
>> >> correct as a representation of this name of language, let us consider that
>> >> we have a "moderately interesting visual association" in the case that only
>> >> two of the three letters composing the code element occur in the considered
>> >> language name, so that the third one will have no occurence in the language
>> >> name. There are exactly 3.N.N.(N-26) such code elements having a
>> >> moderately interesting visual association with the considered language
>> >> name. It is only in the case that no such code element is available or
>> >> judged correct that we can claim that it is absolutely not possible to
>> >> choose a code element having an interesting visual association to represent
>> >> the reference name we choose for the considered language.
>> >>>>>> I hope this explanation will satisfy your question.
>> >>>>>> And in my opinion, this is giving a partial answer to Christian's
>> >> paragraph. Let me also remind you that the very title of ISO 639 is "Codes
>> >> for the representation of names of languages", so that as a principle the
>> >> ISO 639 code elements are considered as representing not directly languages
>> >> (whose socio-political status, or many others characteristics, may change)
>> >> but names for these languages.
>> >>>>>> Bien cordialement.
>> >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Le 14 sept. 2013 à 12:29, Sebastian Drude a écrit :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear Gérard,
>> >>>>>> Although I consider myself quite strong in mathematics and logics, I
>> >> cannot make any sense whatsoever of the formula P(N)=N.N.N + 3.N.N.(26-N).
>> >>>>>> If the exercise is to arrive at the number of combinations of three
>> >> different from 26 letters, one just would calculate “N * (N-1) * (N-2)”,
>> >> right? (First letter any of the 26, second any other than the first, third
>> >> one any other than the first and the second.)
>> >>>>>> But as far as I know there is no rule that states that all three
>> >> letters have to be different.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So what is the intention / rule of finding all “interesting”
>> >> combinations behind your formula?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And, more importantly, why would this settle that Christian is wrong
>> >> with the second part of his mail, or answer to this part of Christian`s
>> >> mail at all:
>> >>>>>> “To this we can add today that we should find better rules in
>> >> selecting language identifiers/symbols so that they are not necessarily be
>> >> considered as abbreviations.
>> >>>>>> Needless to say that languages change (in terms of linguistic norm,
>> >> user distribution and language status) and also the socio-political status
>> >> of language names may change – so we will increasingly run into problems in
>> >> the coding of language names, if they are based on abbreviation.”
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sorry if I am slow in following your thinking, but I fear there are
>> >> many implicit presuppositions that many may take for granted and which I do
>> >> now know.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Cordially,
>> >>>>>> Sebastian
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and
>> >> short, this mail may not fulfil all requirements on form and politeness.
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive
>> >>>>>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics
>> >>>>>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands
>> >>>>>> Email:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone:
>> (+31) 24-3521.470
>> >>>>>>http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>> >>>>>> Sent: Freitag, 13. September 2013 19:02
>> >>>>>> To: Galinski Christian; Sebastian Drude; Zagas John; Lang Gérard
>> >>>>>> Subject: Fwd: Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639
>> >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont
>> >> énégri n/Montenegrin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The appropriate message, one more time.
>> >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Date : 19 novembre 2012 16:20:56 HNEC
>> >>>>>> À : Lang Gérard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Objet : Réexp : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639
>> >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont
>> >> énégri n/Montenegrin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Date : 1 novembre 2012 18:35:42 HNEC
>> >>>>>> À : ISO JAC Voting Member List <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, Guenther
>> >> Rebecca <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, Lang Gérard
>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Objet : Réexp : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639
>> >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont
>> >> énégri n/Montenegrin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Date : 26 août 2012 10:49:59 HAEC
>> >>>>>> À : Budin Gerhard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>,
>> Lang Gérard <
>> >>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Cc : Peter Constable <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, ISO639-3
>> Melinda <
>> >>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >>>>>> Objet : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved
>> >> code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont énégri
>> >> n/Montenegrin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear Gerhard,
>> >>>>>> Thank you for your message.
>> >>>>>> In fact, my combinatorial analysis was not fully complete (it is well
>> >> known that combinatorial analysis is a subtle matter !), so that the true
>> >> results are a little better that the ones I gave in my previous message.
>> >>>>>> There is a more general and more direct approach, as follows.
>> >>>>>> For a basic word built with N distinct roman letters (N being an
>> >> integer number between 1 and 26), we have:
>> >>>>>> -N.N.N (the cube of N) code element with all three letters taken
>> >> among the N letters of the basic considered word;
>> >>>>>> -and 3.N.N.(26-N) code elements with two of the three letters taken
>> >> among the N lettres of the basic word and the third letter taken among the
>> >> (26-N) others roman letters.
>> >>>>>> So that the number of interesting possibilities for a word having N
>> >> distinct roman letters is: P(N)=N.N.N + 3.N.N.(26-N)= N.N(N + 3(26-N))=
>> >> N.N(78-2.N).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The corresponding P(N) numbers (for N varying from 1 to 10) are:
>> >>>>>> N=1 N.N=1 78-2=76 P(N)= 76
>> >>>>>> N=2 N.N=4 78-4=74 P(N)= 296
>> >>>>>> N=3 N.N=9 78-6=72 P(N)= 648
>> >>>>>> N=4 N.N=16 78-8=70 P(N)=1120
>> >>>>>> N=5 N.N=25 78-10=68 P(N)=1700
>> >>>>>> N=6 N.N=36 78-12=66 P(N)=2376
>> >>>>>> N=7 N.N=49 78-14=64 P(N)=3136
>> >>>>>> N=8 N.N=64 78-16=62 P(N)=3968
>> >>>>>> N=9 N.N=81 78-18=60 P(N)=4860
>> >>>>>> N=10 N.N=100 78-20=58 P(N)=5800
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bien amicalement.
>> >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Le 26 août 2012 à 02:23, Budin Gerhard a écrit :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> dear Gérard,
>> >>>>>> thank you for your thoughtful and interesting message, I enjoyed
>> >> reading about the combinatorial background.
>> >>>>>> regards
>> >>>>>> Gerhard
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Univ.-Prof. Dr. Gerhard Budin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Centre for Translation Studies
>> >>>>>> University of Vienna
>> >>>>>> Gymnasiumstraße 50
>> >>>>>> A-1190 Vienna, Austria
>> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>> T: +43 1 4277 58020
>> >>>>>> F: +43 1 4277 9580
>> >>>>>> M: +43 664 60277 58020
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Institute for Corpus Linguistics and Text Technology
>> >>>>>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>> >>>>>> Sonnenfelsgasse 19/8
>> >>>>>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria
>> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>> T: +43 1 51581 2300 (Secretary)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Von: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>> >>>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. August 2012 10:51
>> >>>>>> An: Budin Gerhard; Lang Gérard
>> >>>>>> Cc: Peter Constable; ISO639-3 Melinda
>> >>>>>> Betreff: Re: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved code elements/// New JAC
>> >> ballot on the n ame of language mont énégri n/Montenegrin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear All,
>> >>>>>> Thank you for agreeing "me" and "onm".
>> >>>>>> While I globally agree with Gerhard's message, I do not see the
>> >> situation as pessismistic as him and Peter. Sure, as long as the code
>> >> element for the name of language "english" is not something like "wzx" or
>> >> an alpha-3 code element build with a strong visual association with say the
>> >> romanized version of the russian translation of the word "english" written
>> >> with he cyrillic alphabet or that the code element "spa" is clearly build
>> >> with the three third letters of the english translation of the autonym of
>> >> the considered name of language, there is strictly no hope to convince
>> >> people that this is plain hazard.
>> >>>>>> It is more simple, honest and convincing to publicly admit that the
>> >> initial plan was really to have a strong visual association between the
>> >> names of languages and the alpha-2 and alpha-3 code elements choosen to
>> >> represent them and build upon the (if necessary romanized) autonym or the
>> >> english or the french linguistic version of this name. And so is it
>> >> explicitely written in the normative texts of ISO 639:1988, ISO 639-2:1998,
>> >> ISO 639-1:2002 (and also ISO 639-5:2008 ?), and so is it in fact evidently
>> >> done in ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5, and so for maybe all most
>> >> written and spoken languages of the world.
>> >>>>>> Problems came with ISO 639-3 and its title "Alpha-3 code for a
>> >> comprehensive coverage of languages", supposed to build a code "that aims
>> >> to define three letters identifiers for all known human languages"; I voted
>> >> against the choice of this title because i found it unusefully pompous and
>> >> also dangerous (as the creation of "Europanto" immediately proved). With
>> >> only 17576 possible identifiers for around 7800 names of languages, it was
>> >> clearly becoming a challenge to maintain a strong a visual association
>> >> between code elements and names of languages. But this was nevertheless the
>> >> case that there was a (maybe not so strong as before) visual association in
>> >> a vast majority of cases in the initial (not published within the standard)
>> >> version of ISO 639-3. So, it is now a veritable provocation to explain to
>> >> people coming now to ask for the creation of a new entry within ISO 639-3
>> >> that they have strictly no chance to get a visual association (having
>> >> mnemonic virtues) between the!
>> >> choosen
>> >>> code element and the name of "their" language.
>> >>>>>> First, there is a choice for the base word to be represented between
>> >> the autonym, french or english vesion that gives some commodity. After that
>> >> saying a visual association does not say systematically take the three
>> >> first letters of the base word, or even have all three letters of the code
>> >> elements within the set of letters building the base word. What is at least
>> >> wanted to have a chance of visual association is that at least two of the
>> >> three letters of the code element are among the set of letters of the base
>> >> word; this is certainly not a strong association, but it is far better than
>> >> no association art all. And it is clearly not always possible to find such
>> >> a solution. But people would find it far more respectful of their language
>> >> and culture if we clearly and honestly admitted that the rule is as I
>> >> propose (or something clear like that), and that every effort will be mad
>> >> before choosing a code element having strictly no visual association with
>> >> the name of language. I !
>> >> would add
>> >>> that every choice has cultural, historic, politic and psychological
>> >> connections that cannot be underestimed. I will give the recent following
>> >> exemple from ISO 3166-1: When admitted as a new UN member state, South
>> >> Sudan was to be a new entry and asked for the alpha-2 code element "SS";
>> >> some members of the Maintenance Agency (and notably our german colleague)
>> >> were not happy with this request. But South Sudan maintained his choice
>> >> that was approved after I remarked that we had previously attributed to
>> >> Saudi Arabia the code element "SA" that was as bad as "SS".
>> >>>>>> Finally, as a mathematician, I would say that the law of
>> >> combinatorics are not as bad as you seem to think. Let's take the example
>> >> of the base word "english", taken as the autonym of the considered name of
>> >> language; this word has seven, all distincts, roman letters, so that the
>> >> number of alpha-3 code elements having two of this seven letters as first
>> >> letters is 7.6.25=1 050. It is not sure that one of these 1 050
>> >> combinations is still free, but the chances are not so bad ! And if this is
>> >> not sufficient, we can look for code elements whose second and third
>> >> letter, but not the first one, are among the seven letters: this gives us a
>> >> new set of posibilities, all distincts of the previous ones, and there are
>> >> 19.7.9=798 such possible choices. And, if we are now looking for code
>> >> elements whose first and third letter, but not the second one, are among
>> >> the seven letters, this still gives us a new set of possibilities all
>> >> distinct of the previous ones, and there also are 7.19.6!
>> >> =798.
>> >>>>>> This gives us a set of 1 050+ 798 + 798= 2 646 possible alpha-3 code
>> >> elements having a (maybe not so good !) visual association with the word
>> >> "english" !
>> >>>>>> The chances that the intersection of this set of alpha-3 code
>> >> elements (that represents 2 646/ 17576= 0.150 5 of the total possibilities)
>> >> with the remaining free set of alpha-3 code elements (that represent say 17
>> >> 576 - 7800/ 17 576= 0.556 2 of the total possibilities) be void are not so
>> >> big !
>> >>>>>> Bien cordialement.
>> >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Le 25 août 2012 à 07:26, Budin Gerhard a écrit :
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> dear all,
>> >>>>>> so then let's go for onm for Montenegrin and prepare the dossier and
>> >> the JAC vote.
>> >>>>>> We have been trying desperately in the past and will have to continue
>> >> to do so to explain to the interested public at large and to particular
>> >> language communities concerned when assigning a code element to "their"
>> >> language that given the laws of combinatorics it is simply impossible to
>> >> always comply with their wishes to have highly mnemonic code for their
>> >> language, when such a desirable code element(s) had already been assigned
>> >> to another language or languages long time ago. When going through all our
>> >> language code elements, it becomes clear that quite a number of languages
>> >> must already to with code elements that are not or almost not mnemonic. Of
>> >> course we have always tried to be "as mnemonic as possible" in choosing new
>> >> elements, such as in the present case.
>> >>>>>> regards
>> >>>>>> Gerhard
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Univ.-Prof. Dr. Gerhard Budin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Centre for Translation Studies
>> >>>>>> University of Vienna
>> >>>>>> Gymnasiumstraße 50
>> >>>>>> A-1190 Vienna, Austria
>> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>> T: +43 1 4277 58020
>> >>>>>> F: +43 1 4277 9580
>> >>>>>> M: +43 664 60277 58020
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Institute for Corpus Linguistics and Text Technology
>> >>>>>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>> >>>>>> Sonnenfelsgasse 19/8
>> >>>>>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria
>> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>> T: +43 1 51581 2300 (Secretary)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Von: Peter Constable [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>> >>>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. August 2012 01:29
>> >>>>>> An: Gérard Lang-Marconnet; ISO639-3 Melinda
>> >>>>>> Cc: Budin Gerhard
>> >>>>>> Betreff: RE: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot
>> >> on the n ame of language mont énégri n/Montenegrin
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'd like to understand _why_ it would be useful to reserve a code
>> >> element for Montenegrin. I'm more interested in that than in the choice of
>> >> code element.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If a code element _were_ assigned / reserved for Montenegrin, I have
>> >> no objection to Gérard's choice, "onm".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Peter
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
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