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ISOJAC  October 2013

ISOJAC October 2013

Subject:

Re: letter from Elisabeth Porteneuve dated 26 September 2013

From:

ISO639-3 <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:47:18 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (808 lines)

Dear Elisabeth,

I have had the person who posted the original survey requests send me the full list of recipients. Your name was on the list. 

This morning I sent the full ISOJAC list a link to the survey, in case someone was missed who should have received it.

Here is the full list of those on the original list. I note that one or two people are listed twice--this would have been because they were on the individual lists of recommended recipients, in addition to being on the ISOJAC list.

Original List:
Steven Bird <[log in to unmask]>,
 Doug Whalen <[log in to unmask]>,
 Chris Cieri <[log in to unmask]>,
 Laura Welcher <[log in to unmask]>,
 Anthony Aristar <[log in to unmask]>,
 Brian MacWhinney <[log in to unmask]>,
 Francois Demay <[log in to unmask]>,
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
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 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 Sue Ellen Wright <[log in to unmask]>,
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 Serge Gladkoff <[log in to unmask]>,
 [log in to unmask],
 Hans Fenstermacher <[log in to unmask]>,
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 Loic Dufresne de Virel <[log in to unmask]>,
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
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Combined Subsequent Lists:
[log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
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[log in to unmask]

 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask]

 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask],
 Corine Deliot <[log in to unmask]>,
 [log in to unmask],
 [log in to unmask]

Melinda Lyons
Secretary, JAC
ISO 639

On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:29:51 +0200
 Elisabeth Porteneuve <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Dear Sebastian,
>
> > Therefore a questionnaire has been
> > set up and filled in by several users in the last weeks.
>
>Gérard informed me in the mid of September, that he added my name to the list of people to answer the survey - but I did not receive anything.
>Would you mind, please, confirm that I am on the list, and re-post me the questionnaire?
>It that list of people who was asked to fill the questionaire available?
>
>Thank you very much in advance,
>Elisabeth Porteneuve
>
>
>Le 09/10/2013 10:07, Sebastian Drude a écrit :
>> Dear David,
>>
>> Indeed, in comparison with the task of rethinking and possibly newly
>> setting up the different parts of ISO 639, questions of individual codes
>> are minor.
>>
>> But the larger tasks are also being worked on -- we had fruitful
>> discussions in Pretoria, an ad-hoc working group has been set up, and as
>> one first task we identified that we would need a better understanding
>> of the actual application of ISO codes and of the needs and concerns of
>> the different communities of users.  Therefore a questionnaire has been
>> set up and filled in by several users in the last weeks.  Christian
>> Galinski can certainly send you more information about the next planned
>> steps if you for some reason failed to receive the updates on this
>> matters in the last months.  Are there other people on this list who are
>> not aware of the current developments but should be?
>>
>> In the meantime, the usual business has to go on, even if it is just
>> rearranging chairs -- and I would certainly not compare ISO 639 with the
>> Titanic, at least not after its close encounter with the iceberg.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sebastian Drude
>>
>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and
>> short, this mail may not fulfil all your expectations on form and
>> politeness.
>>
>> --
>>
>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive
>>
>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics
>>
>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone:
>> (+31) 24-3521.470
>>
>> http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian
>>
>> *From:*ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> *On Behalf Of *David Dalby
>> *Sent:* 09 October 2013 09:05
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: letter from Elisabeth Porteneuve dated 26 September 2013
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Elisabeth's letter of 26 September has drawn attention to the
>> fundamental need to define clearly the practical purpose(s) and
>> scientific principles of ISO 639. To my knowledge, her letter has so far
>> been ignored in the current shared discussions of ISOJAC.
>>
>> In fact, after a polite pause of 10 days, technical discussion has now
>> been resumed on how to code the (numerous) ancient and medieval
>> varieties of one specific language. Given the current international,
>> political, practical, cultural and even religious issues involved in the
>> international standardisation and application of language-codes today,
>> this focusing of scholarly attention on the minutiæ of historical forms
>> of Greek might perhaps be compared to the image of "rearranging
>> deckchairs on the Titanic".
>>
>> It would appear that many of the problems of clarity of principle and
>> purpose and of  increasing complexity of practice within ISO 639
>> originate from the "alignment" of (1) the original ISO 639 system of
>> 2-letter identifying tags (covering a limited number of written
>> languages, especially for specifying the sources of technical and
>> scientific terms) with (2) the MARC system of 3-letter identifying tags
>> (potentially covering all of the many thousands of named spoken and
>> written "languages" in the world, extant or extinct, especially for the
>> computerised indexing of bilbliographical sources).
>>
>> After 15 years of this alignment, is it not now appropriate for our JAC
>> to review this "joint" enterprise, and to reflect on whether it would be
>> appropriate at least to discuss the possible separation of an
>> (independent ISO) system of 2-letter codes for specific "written
>> languages" (to be defined) and a (MARC + SIL) system of 3-letter codes
>> to cover an open list of all known named "languages", present and past ?
>>
>> If he were still alive, what opinion on this question might be expressed
>> by Eugen Wüster ?
>>
>> With warm greetings to all
>>
>> David (Dalby)
>>
>>     ----- Forwarded Message -----
>>     *From:*Elisabeth Porteneuve <[log in to unmask]
>>     <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, 26 September 2013, 23:51
>>     *Subject:* Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association
>>     between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code
>>     elements for the representation of this language name
>>
>>
>>     Mark,
>>
>>     I happen to be trilingual, Polish, French and English, with fair
>>     capability to read and write Russian Cyrillic.
>>
>>     When after the split of former Yugoslavia in 1991, I saw the split of
>>     the Serbo - Croatian language code into pieces I could not believe my
>>     eyes, so stupid and harmful it was for the entire country, and for
>>     everyone. The people in former Yugoslavia speak Southern Slavic, the
>>     name of that country means Yugo – South, Slavia – Slavic country.
>>
>>     I happen to be involved in building up networks in those old days.
>>     After
>>     the Berlin Wall failed down on November 9th, 1989, in July 1990 we did
>>     connect Poland to EARN/Bitnet, followed up by an enormous wave of
>>     connecting all Europeans, with the help of their diasporas from
>>     communist era, on both sides of Atlantic Ocean. While the email was
>>     simple text at that time, and the most of connected were research and
>>     university people, in 1990 you could easily ask question and get
>>     correct
>>     answer about language used in former Yugoslavia. In 1991 the Internet
>>     Society, a formal network of people, started to function.
>>
>>     Why you, the ISO 639, you didn’t inquire about language there? Why you,
>>     the ISO 639, you did start to allocate language codes for pieces of
>>     former Yugoslavia territory, and started years of nonsense, worst,
>>     years
>>     of troubles nobody needs?
>>     Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian – it did happen that Montenegrin is the
>>     last one in that split, and now, with all others who received their ISO
>>     639 language codes, there is no more available one for them? Why?
>>     Why do
>>     you change your own rule in the middle of road?
>>
>>     The ISO 639 shall be clearly related to the public interest, a place
>>     where scientists, or scholars, or engineers are doing a general purpose
>>     activity. In a domain of languages no single human being has a practice
>>     of speaking multiple languages going beyond very few, therefore some
>>     safeguards should be inherent to that work, such as duty of seeking
>>     input of concerned, alive, linguistic group before a code is
>>     assigned to
>>     that group (to ensure that an alpha-3 or an alpha-2 codes have not an
>>     offending meaning for a group in their local language, or to ensure
>>     that
>>     one given language is not split up into many by whatever political of
>>     geographical considerations).
>>
>>     I wonder how rules related to the ISO 639 are set, but I trust that due
>>     to the participation of national standardization agencies or Federal
>>     entity in the case of the US, a care is taken to focus on public
>>     interest, with an obligation of modesty of our knowledge, transparency
>>     and adaptability.
>>
>>     Errare humanum est perseverare diabolicum.
>>
>>     Best,
>>     Elisabeth Porteneuve
>>
>>
>>     Le 26/09/2013 10:08, Mark Davis ☕ a écrit :
>>     > This is a long and convoluted thread, but I have a couple of brief comments.
>>     >
>>     > 1. It is a terrible idea to have a code for Montenegrin. Any in-depth
>>     > discussion with people from that area of the world reveals that the
>>     > differences between Serbian and Montenegrin are on the order of dialect
>>     > differences, not languages. The differences are comparable to those you see
>>     > across English or Spanish, and no more different than one encounters
>>     > between different parts of Serbia itself.
>>     >
>>     > Secondly, there is already a well-recognized language subtag (BCP47) for
>>     > Montenegrin: sr-ME. Introducing an equivalent to that will simply bring
>>     > another opportunity for software breakage, nothing more. So in the
>>     > interests of stability, no new code for Montenegrin should be added. (This
>>     > is also a dangerous path for the committee to follow; departing from the
>>     > pragmatic principles that have governed the assignment codes—especially
>>     > those affecting stability—will cause downstream clients to find other
>>     > solutions.)
>>     >
>>     > 2. While the formal title is "Codes for the representation of names of
>>     > languages", that is, *and always has been*, recognized as a misnomer. It is
>>     > and always has been codes for languages, not their names. (Otherwise, each
>>     > alternate name for each language would have required a different code,
>>     > which has never been the case.)
>>     >
>>     > 2. The visual association between a three letter code and a language is of
>>     > little importance. These codes are simply internal identifiers. While it is
>>     > useful to try to maintain some sort of association, it is in the end, not
>>     > particularly significant.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Mark <https://plus.google.com/114199149796022210033>
>>     > *
>>     > *
>>     > *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —*
>>     > **
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:20 PM, ISO639-3 <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     >> Dear Gerard et al.,
>>     >>
>>     >> The one thing no one has mentioned in your discussion is a problem of
>>     >> phonology: most of the codes that are pronounceable, and that comprise the
>>     >> first letters of a language name are already taken. Also, because of
>>     >> phonological frequency of these segments, languages beginning in "B" "K"
>>     >> and "M" have few available codes (10 total available for these 3 initial
>>     >> letters).
>>     >>
>>     >> In addition, few of the codes for the 11 languages of interest to Mr. Lang
>>     >> have been blocked for use by national languages, but others are not.
>>     >>
>>     >> I have a function on my system which can query available codes, should you
>>     >> need it in the future.
>>     >>
>>     >> Melinda
>>     >>
>>     >> On Mon, 23 Sep 2013 19:11:41 +0200
>>     >>  Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 18:10, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit :
>>     >>>
>>     >>>> Dear John,
>>     >>>> I am following your request and relaying our exchanges to the JAC
>>     >> Listserv.
>>     >>>> By the way, I would be most happy (and maybe some others would also be)
>>     >> to have the exact list of the persons on the list that receive the messages
>>     >> we exchange.
>>     >>>> Bien amicalement.
>>     >>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 16:43, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit :
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>>> OK for me.
>>     >>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 16:35, Zagas, John a écrit :
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>> I kindly ask you all:  Please post these to the JAC Listserv.  I do
>>     >> not see the reason why this discussion is being restricted to us four.  I
>>     >> will start posting these messages to the listserv if I continue to be cc'd
>>     >> on these.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Thank you very much.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> John Zagas
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Library of Congress
>>     >>>>>> Network Development & MARC Standards Office
>>     >>>>>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E.
>>     >>>>>> Washington, DC  20540-4402
>>     >>>>>> USA
>>     >>>>>> Phone: 202.707.1153
>>     >>>>>> FAX:  202.707.0115
>>     >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>     >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:32 AM
>>     >>>>>> To: Sebastian Drude
>>     >>>>>> Cc: Galinski Christian; Zagas, John; Lang Gérard
>>     >>>>>> Subject: Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association
>>     >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code elements
>>     >> for the representation of this language name
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Dear Sebastian,
>>     >>>>>> If we suppose that every interesting language can be named; and
>>     >> better can be attributed at least one autonym, one name in english and also
>>     >> one name in french to allow identification without too much ambiguity; then
>>     >> we have no  problem with the standard's title "Codes for the representation
>>     >> of the names of languages". And clearly the codes elements are representing
>>     >> a reference name for the underlying language. This does not at all allow
>>     >> that many names for the same language will have distinct entries in ISO
>>     >> 639, this only says that when new ISO 639 entry is identified by some array
>>     >> of names for this language, the code element to be attributed is
>>     >> representing the reference language name choosen in this array. Let me also
>>     >> add that it seems much more easy to know what is a language name that to
>>     >> know what is a language. For example, "Serbo-Croatian" is certainly a name
>>     >> of language , but there was clearly no unanimity to introduce an alpha-3
>>     >> code element making an ISO 639-2 !
>>     >>  entry for
>>     >>> this name of language when this would have been legally mandatory because
>>     >> there existed an alpha-2 code element "sr" that was an ISO 639-1 entry from
>>     >> the beginning.  If we would want a single code point for each language,
>>     >> independant of the different or same names of these languages, we would
>>     >> have to turn to a numeric coding scheme.
>>     >>>>>> As a statistician, I would say that this is what makes a nomenclature
>>     >> richer than a classification.
>>     >>>>>> When building a classification, you make hierarchical aggregations of
>>     >> elements of the domain you are studying and use classes, so that at each
>>     >> level of the hierarchy all classes cover the total domain with a void
>>     >> intersection between two distinct classes. Building a nomenclature from a
>>     >> classification is using the resources of terminology to give each class of
>>     >> each level a distinguishing identifying name allowing to immediately
>>     >> recognize what elements can be affected to this class.
>>     >>>>>> Bien amicalement.
>>     >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 15:42, Sebastian Drude a écrit :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Thanks for the explanations of the mathematical calculus, Gerard.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> As for the name of the standard, codes for names of languages; this
>>     >> always has struck me as inadequate.
>>     >>>>>> In my perhaps naïve point of view, it is obvious that the codes refer
>>     >> to the languages themselves, and that they are normalized additional
>>     >> “names” for them, instead of referring to other names.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Otherwise, we would not give different ISO code points for two
>>     >> languages who share one English(?) name.
>>     >>>>>> Likewise, with good reasons we do not hand out different codes for
>>     >> languages that happen to have several alternative names (which holds for
>>     >> almost all languages).
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> To have a single code point for each LANGUAGE, independent of the
>>     >> different or same names of these languages, seems to me to be the very
>>     >> point of ISO 639.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Best,
>>     >>>>>> Sebastian (Drude)
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and
>>     >> short, this mail may not fulfil all requirements on form and politeness.
>>     >>>>>> --
>>     >>>>>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive
>>     >>>>>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics
>>     >>>>>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands
>>     >>>>>> Email:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone:
>>     (+31) 24-3521.470
>>     >>>>>>http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>     >>>>>> Sent: Samstag, 14. September 2013 16:28
>>     >>>>>> To: Gérard Lang-Marconnet
>>     >>>>>> Cc: Sebastian Drude; Galinski Christian; Zagas John
>>     >>>>>> Subject: Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association
>>     >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code elements
>>     >> for the representation of this language name
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Please excuse my mistake.
>>     >>>>>> Evidently 3.N.N.(N-26) must be replaced by 3.N.N.(26-N).
>>     >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>>> Le 14 sept. 2013 à 15:46, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Dear Sebastian,
>>     >>>>>> The subject and the meaning of this combinatorial exercise is as
>>     >> follows.
>>     >>>>>> Considering a reference language name whose script in the latin
>>     >> alphabet uses exactly N distinct letters (for example "english" uses 7
>>     >> distinct letters), let us say that a three-letter code element written with
>>     >> the 26 letters of the latin alphabet has a "strong visual association" with
>>     >> this language name if every one of the three letters in the code element is
>>     >> a letter taken in the language name (we do not look only for
>>     >> "abbreviations", so that we do not ask the order of the occurences of the
>>     >> letters in the code element to be the same that in the language name and we
>>     >> allow the same letter to occur two or three times in the code element even
>>     >> in the case that there is only one occurence in the reference language
>>     >> name. There are exactly N.N.N such code elements having a strong visual
>>     >> association with a reference language name written with N letters.
>>     >>>>>> Now, in the case that no such code element is available, or judged
>>     >> correct as a representation of this name of language, let us consider that
>>     >> we have a "moderately interesting visual association" in the case that only
>>     >> two of the three letters composing the code element occur in the considered
>>     >> language name, so that the third one will have no occurence in the language
>>     >> name.  There are exactly 3.N.N.(N-26) such code elements having a
>>     >> moderately interesting visual association with the considered language
>>     >> name. It is only in the case that no such code element is available or
>>     >> judged correct that we can claim that it is absolutely not possible to
>>     >> choose a code element having an interesting visual association to represent
>>     >> the reference name we choose for the considered language.
>>     >>>>>> I hope this explanation will satisfy your question.
>>     >>>>>> And in my opinion, this is giving a partial answer to Christian's
>>     >> paragraph. Let me also remind you that the very title of ISO 639 is "Codes
>>     >> for the representation of names of languages", so that as a principle the
>>     >> ISO 639 code elements are considered as representing not directly languages
>>     >> (whose socio-political status, or many others characteristics, may change)
>>     >> but names for these languages.
>>     >>>>>> Bien cordialement.
>>     >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Le 14 sept. 2013 à 12:29, Sebastian Drude a écrit :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Dear Gérard,
>>     >>>>>> Although I consider myself quite strong in mathematics and logics, I
>>     >> cannot make any sense whatsoever of the formula P(N)=N.N.N + 3.N.N.(26-N).
>>     >>>>>> If the exercise is to arrive at the number of combinations of three
>>     >> different from 26 letters, one just would calculate “N * (N-1) * (N-2)”,
>>     >> right?  (First letter any of the 26, second any other than the first, third
>>     >> one any other than the first and the second.)
>>     >>>>>> But as far as I know there is no rule that states that all three
>>     >> letters have to be different.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> So what is the intention / rule of finding all “interesting”
>>     >> combinations behind your formula?
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> And, more importantly, why would this settle that Christian is wrong
>>     >> with the second part of his mail, or answer to this part of Christian`s
>>     >> mail at all:
>>     >>>>>> “To this we can add today that we should find better rules in
>>     >> selecting language identifiers/symbols so that they are not necessarily be
>>     >> considered as abbreviations.
>>     >>>>>> Needless to say that languages change (in terms of linguistic norm,
>>     >> user distribution and language status) and also the socio-political status
>>     >> of language names may change – so we will increasingly run into problems in
>>     >> the coding of language names, if they are based on abbreviation.”
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Sorry if I am slow in following your thinking, but I fear there are
>>     >> many implicit presuppositions that many may take for granted and which I do
>>     >> now know.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Cordially,
>>     >>>>>> Sebastian
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and
>>     >> short, this mail may not fulfil all requirements on form and politeness.
>>     >>>>>> --
>>     >>>>>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive
>>     >>>>>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics
>>     >>>>>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands
>>     >>>>>> Email:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone:
>>     (+31) 24-3521.470
>>     >>>>>>http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>     >>>>>> Sent: Freitag, 13. September 2013 19:02
>>     >>>>>> To: Galinski Christian; Sebastian Drude; Zagas John; Lang Gérard
>>     >>>>>> Subject: Fwd: Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639
>>     >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot  on the n  ame of language  mont
>>     >> énégri n/Montenegrin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> The appropriate message, one more time.
>>     >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Date : 19 novembre 2012 16:20:56 HNEC
>>     >>>>>> À : Lang Gérard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Objet : Réexp : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639
>>     >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot  on the n  ame of language  mont
>>     >> énégri n/Montenegrin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Date : 1 novembre 2012 18:35:42 HNEC
>>     >>>>>> À : ISO JAC Voting Member List <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, Guenther
>>     >> Rebecca <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, Lang Gérard
>>     <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Objet : Réexp : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639
>>     >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot  on the n  ame of language  mont
>>     >> énégri n/Montenegrin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Date : 26 août 2012 10:49:59 HAEC
>>     >>>>>> À : Budin Gerhard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>,
>>     Lang Gérard <
>>     >>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Cc : Peter Constable <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, ISO639-3
>>     Melinda <
>>     >>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>     >>>>>> Objet : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved
>>     >> code elements/// New JAC ballot  on the n  ame of language  mont énégri
>>     >> n/Montenegrin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Dear Gerhard,
>>     >>>>>> Thank you for your message.
>>     >>>>>> In fact, my combinatorial analysis was not fully complete (it is well
>>     >> known that combinatorial analysis is a subtle matter !), so that the true
>>     >> results are a little better that the ones I gave in my previous message.
>>     >>>>>> There is a more general and more direct approach, as follows.
>>     >>>>>> For a basic word built with N distinct roman letters (N being an
>>     >> integer number between 1 and 26), we have:
>>     >>>>>> -N.N.N (the cube of N) code element with all three letters taken
>>     >> among the N letters of the basic considered word;
>>     >>>>>> -and 3.N.N.(26-N) code elements with two of the three letters taken
>>     >> among the N lettres of the basic word and the third letter taken among the
>>     >> (26-N) others roman letters.
>>     >>>>>> So that the number of interesting possibilities for a word having N
>>     >> distinct roman letters is: P(N)=N.N.N + 3.N.N.(26-N)= N.N(N + 3(26-N))=
>>     >> N.N(78-2.N).
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> The corresponding P(N) numbers (for N varying from 1 to 10) are:
>>     >>>>>> N=1      N.N=1        78-2=76      P(N)=  76
>>     >>>>>> N=2      N.N=4        78-4=74      P(N)=  296
>>     >>>>>> N=3      N.N=9        78-6=72      P(N)=  648
>>     >>>>>> N=4      N.N=16      78-8=70      P(N)=1120
>>     >>>>>> N=5      N.N=25    78-10=68    P(N)=1700
>>     >>>>>> N=6      N.N=36    78-12=66    P(N)=2376
>>     >>>>>> N=7      N.N=49    78-14=64    P(N)=3136
>>     >>>>>> N=8      N.N=64    78-16=62    P(N)=3968
>>     >>>>>> N=9      N.N=81    78-18=60    P(N)=4860
>>     >>>>>> N=10    N.N=100  78-20=58    P(N)=5800
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Bien amicalement.
>>     >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Le 26 août 2012 à 02:23, Budin Gerhard a écrit :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> dear Gérard,
>>     >>>>>> thank you for your thoughtful and interesting message, I enjoyed
>>     >> reading about the combinatorial background.
>>     >>>>>> regards
>>     >>>>>> Gerhard
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Univ.-Prof. Dr. Gerhard Budin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Centre for Translation Studies
>>     >>>>>> University of Vienna
>>     >>>>>> Gymnasiumstraße 50
>>     >>>>>> A-1190 Vienna, Austria
>>     >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     >>>>>> T: +43 1 4277 58020
>>     >>>>>> F: +43 1 4277 9580
>>     >>>>>> M: +43 664 60277 58020
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Institute for Corpus Linguistics and Text Technology
>>     >>>>>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>>     >>>>>> Sonnenfelsgasse 19/8
>>     >>>>>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria
>>     >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     >>>>>> T: +43 1 51581 2300 (Secretary)
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> ________________________________________
>>     >>>>>> Von: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>     >>>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. August 2012 10:51
>>     >>>>>> An: Budin Gerhard; Lang Gérard
>>     >>>>>> Cc: Peter Constable; ISO639-3 Melinda
>>     >>>>>> Betreff: Re: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved code elements/// New JAC
>>     >> ballot  on the n  ame of language  mont énégri n/Montenegrin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Dear All,
>>     >>>>>> Thank you for agreeing "me" and "onm".
>>     >>>>>> While I globally agree with Gerhard's message, I do not see the
>>     >> situation as pessismistic as him and Peter. Sure, as long as the code
>>     >> element for the name of language "english" is not something like "wzx" or
>>     >> an alpha-3 code element build with a strong visual association with say the
>>     >> romanized version of the russian translation of the word "english" written
>>     >> with he cyrillic alphabet or that the code element "spa" is clearly build
>>     >> with the three third letters of the english translation of the autonym of
>>     >> the considered name of language, there is strictly no hope to convince
>>     >> people that this is plain hazard.
>>     >>>>>> It is more simple, honest and convincing to publicly admit that the
>>     >> initial plan was really to have a strong visual association between the
>>     >> names of languages and the alpha-2 and alpha-3 code elements choosen to
>>     >> represent them and build upon the (if necessary romanized) autonym or the
>>     >> english or the french linguistic version of this name. And so is it
>>     >> explicitely written in the normative texts of ISO 639:1988, ISO 639-2:1998,
>>     >> ISO 639-1:2002 (and also ISO 639-5:2008 ?), and so is it in fact evidently
>>     >> done in ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5, and so for maybe all most
>>     >> written and spoken languages of the world.
>>     >>>>>> Problems came with ISO 639-3 and its title  "Alpha-3 code for a
>>     >> comprehensive coverage of languages", supposed to build a code "that aims
>>     >> to define three letters identifiers for all known human languages"; I voted
>>     >> against the choice of this title because i found it unusefully pompous and
>>     >> also dangerous (as the creation of "Europanto" immediately proved). With
>>     >> only 17576 possible identifiers for around 7800 names of languages, it was
>>     >> clearly becoming a challenge to maintain a strong a visual association
>>     >> between code elements and names of languages. But this was nevertheless the
>>     >> case that there was a (maybe not so strong as before) visual association in
>>     >> a vast majority of cases in the initial (not published within the standard)
>>     >> version of ISO 639-3.  So, it is now a veritable provocation to explain to
>>     >> people coming now to ask for the creation of a new entry within ISO 639-3
>>     >> that they have strictly no chance to get a visual association (having
>>     >> mnemonic virtues) between the!
>>     >>    choosen
>>     >>> code element and the name of "their" language.
>>     >>>>>> First, there is a choice for the base word to be represented between
>>     >> the autonym, french or english vesion that gives some commodity. After that
>>     >> saying a visual association does not say systematically take the three
>>     >> first letters of the base word, or even have all three letters of the code
>>     >> elements within the set of letters building the base word. What is at least
>>     >> wanted to have a chance of visual association is that at least two of the
>>     >> three letters of the code element are among the set of letters of the base
>>     >> word; this is certainly not a strong association, but it is far better than
>>     >> no association art all. And it is clearly not always possible to find such
>>     >> a solution. But people would find it far more respectful of their language
>>     >> and culture if we clearly and honestly admitted that the rule is as I
>>     >> propose (or something clear like that), and that every effort will be mad
>>     >> before choosing a code element having strictly no visual association with
>>     >> the name of language. I !
>>     >>  would add
>>     >>> that every choice has cultural, historic, politic and psychological
>>     >> connections that cannot be underestimed. I will give the recent following
>>     >> exemple from ISO 3166-1: When admitted as a new UN member state, South
>>     >> Sudan  was to be a new entry and asked for the alpha-2 code element "SS";
>>     >> some members of the Maintenance Agency (and notably our german colleague)
>>     >> were not happy with this request. But South Sudan maintained his choice
>>     >> that was approved after I remarked that we had previously attributed to
>>     >> Saudi Arabia the code element "SA" that was as bad as "SS".
>>     >>>>>> Finally, as a mathematician, I would say that the law of
>>     >> combinatorics are not as bad as you seem to think. Let's take the example
>>     >> of the base word "english", taken as the autonym of the considered name of
>>     >> language; this word has seven, all distincts, roman letters, so that the
>>     >> number of alpha-3 code elements having two of this seven letters as first
>>     >> letters is 7.6.25=1 050. It is not sure that one of these 1 050
>>     >> combinations is still free, but the chances are not so bad ! And if this is
>>     >> not sufficient, we can look for code elements whose second and third
>>     >> letter, but not the first one, are among the seven letters: this gives us a
>>     >> new set of posibilities, all distincts of the previous ones, and there are
>>     >> 19.7.9=798 such possible choices.  And, if we are now looking for code
>>     >> elements whose first and third letter, but not the second one, are among
>>     >> the seven letters, this still gives us a new set of possibilities all
>>     >> distinct of the previous ones, and there also are 7.19.6!
>>     >>  =798.
>>     >>>>>> This gives us a set of 1 050+ 798 + 798= 2 646 possible alpha-3 code
>>     >> elements having a (maybe not so good !) visual association with the word
>>     >> "english" !
>>     >>>>>> The chances that the intersection of this set of alpha-3 code
>>     >> elements (that represents 2 646/ 17576= 0.150 5 of the total possibilities)
>>     >> with the remaining free set of alpha-3 code elements (that represent say 17
>>     >> 576 - 7800/ 17 576= 0.556 2 of the total possibilities) be void are not so
>>     >> big !
>>     >>>>>> Bien cordialement.
>>     >>>>>> Gérard Lang
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Le 25 août 2012 à 07:26, Budin Gerhard a écrit :
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> dear all,
>>     >>>>>> so then let's go for onm for Montenegrin and prepare the dossier and
>>     >> the JAC vote.
>>     >>>>>> We have been trying desperately in the past and will have to continue
>>     >> to do so to explain to the interested public at large and to particular
>>     >> language communities concerned when assigning a code element to "their"
>>     >> language that given the laws of combinatorics it is simply impossible to
>>     >> always comply with their wishes to have highly mnemonic code for their
>>     >> language, when such a desirable code element(s) had already been assigned
>>     >> to another language or languages long time ago. When going through all our
>>     >> language code elements, it becomes clear that quite a number of languages
>>     >> must already to with code elements that are not or almost not mnemonic. Of
>>     >> course we have always tried to be "as mnemonic as possible" in choosing new
>>     >> elements, such as in the present case.
>>     >>>>>> regards
>>     >>>>>> Gerhard
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Univ.-Prof. Dr. Gerhard Budin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Centre for Translation Studies
>>     >>>>>> University of Vienna
>>     >>>>>> Gymnasiumstraße 50
>>     >>>>>> A-1190 Vienna, Austria
>>     >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     >>>>>> T: +43 1 4277 58020
>>     >>>>>> F: +43 1 4277 9580
>>     >>>>>> M: +43 664 60277 58020
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Institute for Corpus Linguistics and Text Technology
>>     >>>>>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>>     >>>>>> Sonnenfelsgasse 19/8
>>     >>>>>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria
>>     >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>     >>>>>> T: +43 1 51581 2300 (Secretary)
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> ________________________________________
>>     >>>>>> Von: Peter Constable [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>     >>>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. August 2012 01:29
>>     >>>>>> An: Gérard Lang-Marconnet; ISO639-3 Melinda
>>     >>>>>> Cc: Budin Gerhard
>>     >>>>>> Betreff: RE: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot
>>     >>  on the n  ame of language  mont énégri n/Montenegrin
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> I'd like to understand _why_ it would be useful to reserve a code
>>     >> element for Montenegrin. I'm more interested in that than in the choice of
>>     >> code element.
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> If a code element _were_ assigned / reserved for Montenegrin, I have
>>     >> no objection to Gérard's choice, "onm".
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>> Peter
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>
>>     >>
>>     >
>>

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