Good point, Cary. Also Eugene's point. But as physical artifacts, the value will be more among
collectors than stored away in archives. You never know with artifacts. I watch the antique glass
market pretty carefully. It's amazing how much values have gone up and down just in my lifetime. A
recent, similar thing can be seen with LP covers. A few hipsters hang some cool-looking old covers
on their walls. All of a sudden all of 20-something Brooklyn floods record stores and the dollar
bins are no more (they suddenly become $5 bins).
-- Tom Fine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cary Ginell" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
> Tom,
>
> This assumes that collectors collect 78s solely for the musical or spoken content. Many collectors
> treat the physical object with as much reverence as the sound that's on it. Hopefully there will
> be enough real collectors who value the objects themselves that will keep the hobby alive, just as
> in other collectibles that have outlived their usefulness but are still valued as pieces of
> history.
>
> Cary Ginell
>
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Hi David:
>>
>> Still haven't fixed that reply-to setting, but anyway ...
>>
>> I would advise your daughter to ask Salvation Army or Goodwill or whatever is the Canadian
>> equivilent to take them away and handle the collector chaos. A cherry-picking mahem session goes
>> in the class of "don't try this at home"! Maybe sweeten the deal by promising the store that you
>> will alert the collector lists with which you communicate, so they won't be stuck with hundreds
>> of pounds of records that no one will ever buy. Perhaps there is a thrift store nearby affiliated
>> with some worthy charity in your local community, so your good deed will directly benefit some of
>> those who live near your daughter (and thus, indirectly, improve her quality of life under the
>> theory of social-good ripple effects). Maybe you and your daughter could reach out now, while
>> you're still in good shape, and see which if any thrift stores might be interested. In the least,
>> it will be educational because you can gauge the interest within easy transport distance.
>>
>> From a larger perspective, I wonder if the day will come when shellac of anything with a
>> surviving metal or laquer master will be totally worthless. I note the Sony and UMG donations
>> (with many strings attached) to the LOC. So what if the ideal day comes, when all those metal
>> parts and lacquers have been cleaned and excellent transfers were made and the high-resolution
>> digital files are easily accessible in the public domain? At the point, why would anyone want an
>> old shellac pressing, which in theory should sound terrible compared to the digital transfer from
>> the metal or laquer parts? I realize that many shellac-era records no longer have metal parts or
>> spotless lacquers, but what about those that do? In theory, that would free up a lot of
>> bulk-storage space for both collectors and archives, and those who accumulate the worthless
>> shellacs would be more object-grabbers than collectors. Regarding the concept of archiving and
>> cultural legacy, I don't see this as any different from having a good-condition master tape but
>> no remaining copies of the LP. Or having multiple managed data farms full of the bits and bytes
>> that used to live on fragile U-Matic 1630 tapes or DATs.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>
>>
>>> Well this is my dilemma too. I remember the thrill I've felt many times as I've found treasure
>>> after treasure in Goodwill stores and their kind but if my daughter just threw open the door and
>>> invited collectors to come and cherry pick through the collection, they would leave her with
>>> total chaos - it would probably look like there were more records when they were finished that
>>> when they started.
>>>
>>> db
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On , DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> My problem is that I have 10s of thousands of records - most from the CBC record library whose
>>> 78s I acquired a couple of years ago and I have no idea which are considered rare collectors'
>>> items. There are lots of jazz and country records in this collection which might have some
>>> commercial value and others that have none. Now it's just me and my daughter left and I've told
>>> her some organizations to contact when I'm gone, (including ARSC), but have impressed her with
>>> the reality that most of the records are probably of no value and that she'll probably have to
>>> pay someone to remove them. There are, of course, many which I value highly but that's no
>>> reflection of their market value.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> db
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 5:51:20 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My apologies to you, David Seubert, in my negative comments about donating
>>>>> to schools. You are the rare enlightened individual at an enlightened
>>>>> institution that understands the value of collections and truly cares. I
>>>>> know lots of anecdotes about terrible consequences when collections have
>>>>> been donated to schools. A good example is the donation of Fritz Reiner's
>>>>> papers and score collection (and the funding that went with it) to Columbia
>>>>> University, where the materials promptly disappeared from view, with the
>>>>> money used for other purposes in complete violation of the terms of the
>>>>> gift. This situation is well discussed in the final chapter of Philip
>>>>> Hart's good Reiner biography. As the schools know, years after the gift
>>>>> there is no one around who is likely to challenge their violation of the
>>>>> terms of the gift, and there's all that cash just sitting there, and
>>> the
>>>>> burning need for funding for the hot, trendy project-of-the-month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> John Haley
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cary, David, Mike Gray, etc:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more we talk about this, I think this topic is important enough for an
>>>>>> article or on-going series of briefs in the ARSC Journal. Maybe something
>>>>>> akin to the copyright-law briefs. Estate law changes all the time, which is
>>>>>> why I think a one-shot article may not be as useful. However, an article
>>>>>> could cover issues from the collector perspective (how to figure out what
>>>>>> to donate and what to leave out as flotsum and jetsum; how to find a
>>>>>> willing recipient; how to bring family members or friends into the process;
>>>>>> how to deal with an estate attorney
>>> probably not expert in your collection;
>>>>>> etc). It's also probably worth discussing, the differences between a true
>>>>>> collection (which I would argue is something that has been curated by a
>>>>>> collector with expertise in the subject area, is somewhat focused and
>>>>>> contains at least some rare/valuable items in excellent condition) vs an
>>>>>> accumulation (which is self-described but what, in my experience, many call
>>>>>> a "collection").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wish I knew more about the legal issues and the institutional
>>>>>> perspectives on the topics we're raising. It would definitely help my own
>>>>>> planning, and I think it would be a great service to ARSC members, in some
>>>>>> cases more than justifying membership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Seubert" <
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 3:56 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cary,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that this would be an important session. I think that somebody
>>>>>>> from an institution on the curatorial side should be on the panel, but I
>>>>>>> also think somebody from an institutional major gifts office should be on
>>>>>>> the panel. Perhaps UNC has somebody on staff that could appear? Our
>>>>>>> position is vacant now, but typically our person is a lawyer who can
>>>>>>> actually help donors write bequest language and weigh tax benefits. There
>>>>>>> can be significant tax benefits to donors that I don't think are well
>>>>>>> understood.
>>> My example is that a dealer might pay ten cents on the dollar
>>>>>>> for a collection (and probably cherry pick), while a tax deduction would
>>>>>>> net a donor 20 cents on the dollar if the donor is in a 20% tax bracket.
>>>>>>> That's real money, not just good will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think a dealer and a collector should be on the panel though I'm
>>>>>>> not sure who would be willing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is more common than some probably realize. David Lennick also lost
>>>>>>> much of his collection two years ago in a "storage wars" type situation. I
>>>>>>> think all the 78s found homes, but I think his master tapes got sold for
>>>>>>> the scrap value of the flanges.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> David Seubert
>>>>>>> Head, Special Collections (Acting)
>>>>>>> UC Santa Barbara
>>> Library
>>>>>>> University of California
>>>>>>> Santa Barbara, CA 93106-9010
>>>>>>> Tel: 805-893-5444
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cary Ginell
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:18 AM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife knows the value of my collection, both historical as well as
>>>>>>> intrinsic, but we are torn as to whether to auction or donate, and if the
>>>>>>> latter, to whom and when? It would be a shame to find oneself in Mr.
>>>>>>> Barr's situation where desperation often invites
>>> wholesale dumping just to
>>>>>>> get rid of it all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This subject needs to be addressed in a panel discussion at the next ARSC
>>>>>>> conference. If anyone would like to form a panel and draft a proposal, it
>>>>>>> would be welcomed. I'm program chair for the 2014 conference and believe
>>>>>>> that this is a major concern for all ARSC members and should be discussed.
>>>>>>> Who would like to take up the challenge? The deadline for submitting
>>>>>>> proposals is fast approached (January 6).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cary Ginell
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:07 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a real issue, and we should all mark Tom's words. I have bought
>>>>>>>> collections and particpated in clean-outs for relatives and others,
>>>>>>>> and
>>> believe me, the real enemy of the great collection is the
>>>>>>>> dumpster. That is where a lot of them go. My goal is to skinny down
>>>>>>>> what I have while I am alive, and then leave some kind of list or
>>>>>>>> markings of what is really valuable. To the non-collectors in our
>>>>>>>> families who have tolerated our collections for years, it is usually all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> junk to be got rid of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> John Haley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:07 AM, eugene hayhoe <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I, when I walk into my basement, feel like 'what a lucky guy.' My
>>>>>>>>> wife, OTOH, goes 'OMG!' and mostly won't even
>>> come down here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The concern I have is finding the spot where 'she gets the most
>>>>>>>>> value' and 'the recordings, etc. end up in the right places' meet -
>>>>>>>>> most dealers have personal financial interests, and the moving 'would
>>>>>>>>> not be a quick, casual job.' I've suggested more than once that she
>>>>>>>>> 'hire someone to open a temporary store' as the best way to
>>>>>>>>> liquidate, but she doesn't display much enthusiasm, despite the quite
>>>>>>>>> profitable nature of that idea. One friend could be interested in
>>>>>>>>> some, but has his own space issues of the same nature. As a retired
>>>>>>>>> college faculty member, I wouldn't trust much of any school to 'use
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> them appropriately.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've also told her that 'if Koester is
>>> still around when that time
>>>>>>>>> comes, he'd probably be interested.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And in NO way is that a dis; only spoke to him once, but 'have been
>>>>>>>>> appreciating his efforts in preserving American music for over 45
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> years.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12/3/13, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3,
>>> 2013, 8:03 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One lesson that can be learned is
>>>>>>>>> that we who collect should explore, while we are healthy, vital and
>>>>>>>>> with full faculties, who might want to inherit our collections. Is
>>>>>>>>> there an institution or archive we trust, and is interested? Another
>>>>>>>>> collector? Would we like to pre-arrange an auction with an expert in
>>>>>>>>> the topic areas where we focus our collection? Don't assume spouses
>>>>>>>>> or children or friends know or care about your collection, unless you
>>>>>>>>> have included them in it and they have expressed interest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having inherited a few collections of records and vintage audio gear,
>>>>>>>>> I will say that it is never an easy process because of the bulk,
>>>>>>>>> logistics, storage and other
>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>> There is always expense and time-burden put on the person taking over
>>>>>>>>> the collection, so make sure that person wants the collection enough
>>>>>>>>> to put in the time and put up the money. In my case, it helped very
>>>>>>>>> much in the cases where the collection was well-documented. It also
>>>>>>>>> helped that two of the collections had been introduced to me
>>>>>>>>> gradually, with detailed explaination from the original owners. In
>>>>>>>>> fact I treasure those times, with people I respected and cared for
>>>>>>>>> explaining something they loved and about which they knew a great
>>>>>>>>> deal, more than I treasure the actual items.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the other cases, it was "hey I know you like this kind of stuff
>>>>>>>>> and we need to clean out XX's house so we can sell it, if you'll
>>> come
>>>>>>>>> and take it away you can have it." In those cases, I was much more
>>>>>>>>> likely to sell off pieces in order to cover my logistics and storage
>>>>>>>>> expenses, very soon after taking possession. I do not regret any of
>>>>>>>>> those sales, because some very nice items passed into hands that
>>>>>>>>> appreciate and use them today. In these cases, I have passed back all
>>>>>>>>> other sales proceeds to the people generous enough to call me rather
>>>>>>>>> than put stuff in the dumpster or turn it over to an estate-sale hack
>>>>>>>>> to get pennies on the dollar of the true values. Net-net, I ended up
>>>>>>>>> keeping fewer items from these collections, but it's nice to have
>>>>>>>>> those things.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The final case I've been involved in was my friend, 10 years my
>>>>>>>>> junior, who
>>> died suddenly earlier this year. His father needed help
>>>>>>>>> assessing his house-full of audio gear, tapes and records, and
>>>>>>>>> finding buyers for what had monetary value and takers for the rest.
>>>>>>>>> We managed to get 90% of it sold and given away, and the rest really
>>>>>>>>> was dumpster junk. I bought some equipment items, which I am happy to
>>>>>>>>> have, and his father gave me his records and tapes, which I am very
>>>>>>>>> pleased to have and will remind me of my good friend gone too soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point of this is, if you care about what happens to your
>>>>>>>>> collection when you're gone, you need to be proactive. The best time
>>>>>>>>> to be proactive is when you have the energy and the presence of mind
>>>>>>>>> to do it, ie not at the very end. You can't take it with you, and
>>> you
>>>>>>>>> must assume that no one else values it and nothing good will happen
>>>>>>>>> to it unless you make preparations and enlist allies who will outlive
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "eugene hayhoe"
>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:26 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All that work collecting and organizing for naught? A
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> shame.
>>> Hope they ended up with 'someone who appreciates what they
>>>>>>>>> have.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 12/2/13, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 2, 2013, 9:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David Lennick is your best bet,
>>>>>>>>>> however I'm not sure he has the info either. I
>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> there is an e-mail address because the reason he
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> stopped
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> posting on 78L was because he didn't have a computer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He may
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> well be out of reach. I understand his records have
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> liquidated to cover debts owing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> db
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, David Seubert
>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anybody heard from Steve Barr lately and have a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contact email? The
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> email I have for him bounces.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
|
