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ARSCLIST  December 2013

ARSCLIST December 2013

Subject:

Re: steven barr

From:

Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 4 Dec 2013 06:35:56 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (457 lines)

Hi David:

This is very enlightening. Thanks. As others have pointed out, artifact collecting is as big an 
activity as music collecting, so I guess shellacs will be around for a long time.

I did not know that so few metal parts exist. That's a shame. Even the very best transfers I have 
heard (and made) from shellac common-market records pale in comparison to having access to metal 
parts, lacquers cut at the sessions, or the too-rarely-used method of pressing onto vinyl or some 
other quiet material from the metal parts early in the process (I think this was done late in the 78 
era so only applies to later titles).

For the record, I have never let any grooved disks, LP or shellac, go into a dumpster if I could 
have anything to do with it. But I have to say, the world may be running out of accumulators like 
some we know from ARSC. By all indications, the younger generation will have less disposable income 
and live in a more crowded country, all of which bodes ill for houses full of records or multiple 
storage lockers demanding monthly rent payments.

To circle back to my original posting, about how important it is for collectors to have a plan for 
when they are too infirm to take care of themselves and their stuff ... all of what you and others 
say about the value of the bulky, heavy, dusty physical artifacts makes the matter all the more 
pressing, and all the more of importance to ARSC as an organization still partially comprised of 
hardcore collectors.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Seubert" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 2:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr


> Tom,
>
> With all due respect to your expertise in the tape era, in the pre-tape era the preservation 
> situation is much more dire. There will never be a day when we have pristine transfers from metal 
> parts for many pre-tape era recordings. The metal parts just don't exist. Columbia (now Sony) 
> supposedly has the largest archive of metal parts around, but most of the other archives of metal 
> parts are gone due to war, neglect, or incompetence, and the only surviving copies are now the 
> shellac pressings. Most shellac recordings exist in quantity in public and private collections, 
> but it is still important to save original pressings. At UCSB we sift though thousands of shellac 
> pressing a year, archiving anything that isn't already in our collection for discographic evidence 
> and for preservation and public access.
>
> UCSB also has extensive correspondence between William R. Moran and staff at Columbia documenting 
> the destruction of their metal parts in the 50s as a group of collectors covertly tried to save 
> some of the recordings. I won't judge the management decisions of Columbia at the time, but the 
> facts are the facts, and they destroyed much of their archive, as did most labels. Preservation of 
> shellac is nothing like the tape era, where the vast majority exist on a better media somewhere. 
> For many early labels, shellac is the archival medium now, and to discount recordings of "lesser 
> artistic merit" is to fall into the same trap the Columbia management in the 50s fell into, saving 
> the classical metal parts but not the rest.
>
> And for clarification, Sony hasn't donated anything to LC that I'm aware of. UMG did donate the 
> Decca metal parts to LC, but that's only because in the previous year their LA warehouse burned 
> down consuming over 100,000 master tapes in the fire. Perhaps the combination of guilt and the 
> potential tax benefits of a donation finally got to them?
>
> David Seubert
>
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Tom Fine wrote:
>
>> Hi David:
>>
>> Still haven't fixed that reply-to setting, but anyway ...
>>
>> I would advise your daughter to ask Salvation Army or Goodwill or whatever is the Canadian 
>> equivilent to take them away and handle the collector chaos. A cherry-picking mahem session goes 
>> in the class of "don't try this at home"! Maybe sweeten the deal by promising the store that you 
>> will alert the collector lists with which you communicate, so they won't be stuck with hundreds 
>> of pounds of records that no one will ever buy. Perhaps there is a thrift store nearby affiliated 
>> with some worthy charity in your local community, so your good deed will directly benefit some of 
>> those who live near your daughter (and thus, indirectly, improve her quality of life under the 
>> theory of social-good ripple effects). Maybe you and your daughter could reach out now, while 
>> you're still in good shape, and see which if any thrift stores might be interested. In the least, 
>> it will be educational because you can gauge the interest within easy transport distance.
>>
>> From a larger perspective, I wonder if the day will come when shellac of anything with a 
>> surviving metal or laquer master will be totally worthless. I note the Sony and UMG donations 
>> (with many strings attached) to the LOC. So what if the ideal day comes, when all those metal 
>> parts and lacquers have been cleaned and excellent transfers were made and the high-resolution 
>> digital files are easily accessible in the public domain? At the point, why would anyone want an 
>> old shellac pressing, which in theory should sound terrible compared to the digital transfer from 
>> the metal or laquer parts? I realize that many shellac-era records no longer have metal parts or 
>> spotless lacquers, but what about those that do? In theory, that would free up a lot of 
>> bulk-storage space for both collectors and archives, and those who accumulate the worthless 
>> shellacs would be more object-grabbers than collectors. Regarding the concept of archiving and 
>> cultural legacy, I don't see this as any different from having a good-condition master tape but 
>> no remaining copies of the LP. Or having multiple managed data farms full of the bits and bytes 
>> that used to live on fragile U-Matic 1630 tapes or DATs.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>
>>
>>> Well this is my dilemma too. I remember the thrill I've felt many times as I've found treasure 
>>> after treasure in Goodwill stores and their kind but if my daughter just threw open the door and 
>>> invited collectors to come and cherry pick through the collection, they would leave her with 
>>> total chaos - it would probably look like there were more records when they were finished that 
>>> when they started.
>>>
>>> db
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On , DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> My problem is that I have 10s of thousands of records - most from the CBC record library whose 
>>> 78s I acquired a couple of years ago and I have no idea which are considered rare collectors' 
>>> items. There are lots of jazz and country records in this collection which might have some 
>>> commercial value and others that have none. Now it's just me and my daughter left and I've told 
>>> her some organizations to contact when I'm gone, (including ARSC), but have impressed her with 
>>> the reality that most of the records are probably of no value and that she'll probably have to 
>>> pay someone to remove them. There are, of course, many which I value highly but that's no 
>>> reflection of their market value.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> db
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 5:51:20 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My apologies to you, David Seubert, in my negative comments about donating
>>>>> to schools. You are the rare enlightened individual at an enlightened
>>>>> institution that understands the value of collections and truly cares. I
>>>>> know lots of anecdotes about terrible consequences when collections have
>>>>> been donated to schools. A good example is the donation of Fritz Reiner's
>>>>> papers and score collection (and the funding that went with it) to Columbia
>>>>> University, where the materials promptly disappeared from view, with the
>>>>> money used for other purposes in complete violation of the terms of the
>>>>> gift. This situation is well discussed in the final chapter of Philip
>>>>> Hart's good Reiner biography. As the schools know, years after the gift
>>>>> there is no one around who is likely to challenge their violation of the
>>>>> terms of the gift, and there's all that cash just sitting there, and
>>> the
>>>>> burning need for funding for the hot, trendy project-of-the-month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> John Haley
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cary, David, Mike Gray, etc:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more we talk about this, I think this topic is important enough for an
>>>>>> article or on-going series of briefs in the ARSC Journal. Maybe something
>>>>>> akin to the copyright-law briefs. Estate law changes all the time, which is
>>>>>> why I think a one-shot article may not be as useful. However, an article
>>>>>> could cover issues from the collector perspective (how to figure out what
>>>>>> to donate and what to leave out as flotsum and jetsum; how to find a
>>>>>> willing recipient; how to bring family members or friends into the process;
>>>>>> how to deal with an estate attorney
>>> probably not expert in your collection;
>>>>>> etc). It's also probably worth discussing, the differences between a true
>>>>>> collection (which I would argue is something that has been curated by a
>>>>>> collector with expertise in the subject area, is somewhat focused and
>>>>>> contains at least some rare/valuable items in excellent condition) vs an
>>>>>> accumulation (which is self-described but what, in my experience, many call
>>>>>> a "collection").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wish I knew more about the legal issues and the institutional
>>>>>> perspectives on the topics we're raising. It would definitely help my own
>>>>>> planning, and I think it would be a great service to ARSC members, in some
>>>>>> cases more than justifying membership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Seubert" <
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 3:56 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cary,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that this would be an important session. I think that somebody
>>>>>>> from an institution on the curatorial side should be on the panel, but I
>>>>>>> also think somebody from an institutional major gifts office should be on
>>>>>>> the panel. Perhaps UNC has somebody on staff that could appear? Our
>>>>>>> position is vacant now, but typically our person is a lawyer who can
>>>>>>> actually help donors write bequest language and weigh tax benefits. There
>>>>>>> can be significant tax benefits to donors that I don't think are well
>>>>>>> understood.
>>> My example is that a dealer might pay ten cents on the dollar
>>>>>>> for a collection (and probably cherry pick), while a tax deduction would
>>>>>>> net a donor 20 cents on the dollar if the donor is in a 20% tax bracket.
>>>>>>> That's real money, not just good will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think a dealer and a collector should be on the panel though I'm
>>>>>>> not sure who would be willing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is more common than some probably realize. David Lennick also lost
>>>>>>> much of his collection two years ago in a "storage wars" type situation. I
>>>>>>> think all the 78s found homes, but I think his master tapes got sold for
>>>>>>> the scrap value of the flanges.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> David Seubert
>>>>>>> Head, Special Collections (Acting)
>>>>>>> UC Santa Barbara
>>> Library
>>>>>>> University of California
>>>>>>> Santa Barbara, CA 93106-9010
>>>>>>> Tel: 805-893-5444
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cary Ginell
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:18 AM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife knows the value of my collection, both historical as well as
>>>>>>> intrinsic, but we are torn as to whether to auction or donate, and if the
>>>>>>> latter, to whom and when? It would be a shame to find oneself in Mr.
>>>>>>> Barr's situation where desperation often invites
>>> wholesale dumping just to
>>>>>>> get rid of it all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This subject needs to be addressed in a panel discussion at the next ARSC
>>>>>>> conference. If anyone would like to form a panel and draft a proposal, it
>>>>>>> would be welcomed. I'm program chair for the 2014 conference and believe
>>>>>>> that this is a major concern for all ARSC members and should be discussed.
>>>>>>> Who would like to take up the challenge? The deadline for submitting
>>>>>>> proposals is fast approached (January 6).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cary Ginell
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:07 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a real issue, and we should all mark Tom's words. I have bought
>>>>>>>> collections and particpated in clean-outs for relatives and others,
>>>>>>>> and
>>> believe me, the real enemy of the great collection is the
>>>>>>>> dumpster. That is where a lot of them go. My goal is to skinny down
>>>>>>>> what I have while I am alive, and then leave some kind of list or
>>>>>>>> markings of what is really valuable. To the non-collectors in our
>>>>>>>> families who have tolerated our collections for years, it is usually all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> junk to be got rid of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> John Haley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:07 AM, eugene hayhoe <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I, when I walk into my basement, feel like 'what a lucky guy.' My
>>>>>>>>> wife, OTOH, goes 'OMG!' and mostly won't even
>>> come down here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The concern I have is finding the spot where 'she gets the most
>>>>>>>>> value' and 'the recordings, etc. end up in the right places' meet -
>>>>>>>>> most dealers have personal financial interests, and the moving 'would
>>>>>>>>> not be a quick, casual job.' I've suggested more than once that she
>>>>>>>>> 'hire someone to open a temporary store' as the best way to
>>>>>>>>> liquidate, but she doesn't display much enthusiasm, despite the quite
>>>>>>>>> profitable nature of that idea. One friend could be interested in
>>>>>>>>> some, but has his own space issues of the same nature. As a retired
>>>>>>>>> college faculty member, I wouldn't trust much of any school to 'use
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> them appropriately.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've also told her that 'if Koester is
>>> still around when that time
>>>>>>>>> comes, he'd probably be interested.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And in NO way is that a dis; only spoke to him once, but 'have been
>>>>>>>>> appreciating his efforts in preserving American music for over 45
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> years.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12/3/13, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3,
>>> 2013, 8:03 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One lesson that can be learned is
>>>>>>>>> that we who collect should explore, while we are healthy, vital and
>>>>>>>>> with full faculties, who might want to inherit our collections. Is
>>>>>>>>> there an institution or archive we trust, and is interested? Another
>>>>>>>>> collector? Would we like to pre-arrange an auction with an expert in
>>>>>>>>> the topic areas where we focus our collection? Don't assume spouses
>>>>>>>>> or children or friends know or care about your collection, unless you
>>>>>>>>> have included them in it and they have expressed interest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having inherited a few collections of records and vintage audio gear,
>>>>>>>>> I will say that it is never an easy process because of the bulk,
>>>>>>>>> logistics, storage and other
>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>> There is always expense and time-burden put on the person taking over
>>>>>>>>> the collection, so make sure that person wants the collection enough
>>>>>>>>> to put in the time and put up the money. In my case, it helped very
>>>>>>>>> much in the cases where the collection was well-documented. It also
>>>>>>>>> helped that two of the collections had been introduced to me
>>>>>>>>> gradually, with detailed explaination from the original owners. In
>>>>>>>>> fact I treasure those times, with people I respected and cared for
>>>>>>>>> explaining something they loved and about which they knew a great
>>>>>>>>> deal, more than I treasure the actual items.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the other cases, it was "hey I know you like this kind of stuff
>>>>>>>>> and we need to clean out XX's house so we can sell it, if you'll
>>> come
>>>>>>>>> and take it away you can have it." In those cases, I was much more
>>>>>>>>> likely to sell off pieces in order to cover my logistics and storage
>>>>>>>>> expenses, very soon after taking possession. I do not regret any of
>>>>>>>>> those sales, because some very nice items passed into hands that
>>>>>>>>> appreciate and use them today. In these cases, I have passed back all
>>>>>>>>> other sales proceeds to the people generous enough to call me rather
>>>>>>>>> than put stuff in the dumpster or turn it over to an estate-sale hack
>>>>>>>>> to get pennies on the dollar of the true values. Net-net, I ended up
>>>>>>>>> keeping fewer items from these collections, but it's nice to have
>>>>>>>>> those things.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The final case I've been involved in was my friend, 10 years my
>>>>>>>>> junior, who
>>> died suddenly earlier this year. His father needed help
>>>>>>>>> assessing his house-full of audio gear, tapes and records, and
>>>>>>>>> finding buyers for what had monetary value and takers for the rest.
>>>>>>>>> We managed to get 90% of it sold and given away, and the rest really
>>>>>>>>> was dumpster junk. I bought some equipment items, which I am happy to
>>>>>>>>> have, and his father gave me his records and tapes, which I am very
>>>>>>>>> pleased to have and will remind me of my good friend gone too soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point of this is, if you care about what happens to your
>>>>>>>>> collection when you're gone, you need to be proactive. The best time
>>>>>>>>> to be proactive is when you have the energy and the presence of mind
>>>>>>>>> to do it, ie not at the very end. You can't take it with you, and
>>> you
>>>>>>>>> must assume that no one else values it and nothing good will happen
>>>>>>>>> to it unless you make preparations and enlist allies who will outlive
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "eugene hayhoe"
>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:26 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All that work collecting and organizing for naught? A
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> shame.
>>> Hope they ended up with 'someone who appreciates what they
>>>>>>>>> have.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 12/2/13, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr
>>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 2, 2013, 9:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David Lennick is your best bet,
>>>>>>>>>> however I'm not sure he has the info either. I
>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> there is an e-mail address because the reason he
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> stopped
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> posting on 78L was because he didn't have a computer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He may
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> well be out of reach. I understand his records have
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> liquidated to cover debts owing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> db
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, David Seubert
>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anybody heard from Steve Barr lately and have a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contact email? The
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> email I have for him bounces.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
> 

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