I have always assumed that the heavy compression encountered on FM radio
was because the station was afraid you would be rolling the dial and pass
them by if there was a moment of soft music, or worse, silence in the
music. If they could, they would probably eliminate all rests in music.
 But nothing seems to have topped the heavy compression to be heard on XM
Radio, which is ironically a superior digital broadcast format where wide
dynamic response with low noise is really possible. This makes XM fairly
unsuitable for any kind of "serious" listening. And for this, we have to
pay every month.

Best,
John Haley


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> One of the most MISGUIDED ideas in the "Loudness Wars" is that "it sounds
> louder on the radio."
>
> Exhibit A -- debunking of this myth from the inventor of the FM LOUDNESS
> MACHINE, Robert Orban:
> http://tinyurl.com/jw9j4zn
>
> Exhibit B -- further explaination and proof from a UK writer:
> http://productionadvice.co.uk/loudness-means-nothing-on-the-radio/
>
> Basically, typical Orban and other FM processing already toothpastes
> music. Throwing a toothpasted master at it just causes clipping, with no
> increase in loudness. This is why people tune out of FM radio, it sounds
> absolutely terrible and it's fatiguing to hear for more than a few minutes.
>
> Almost all FM radio today in the US (and, I would guess, in the rest of
> the world) uses heavy-handed compression/processing, in order to aid
> reception in car radios and on the fringes of the listening areas. There
> have been experiments in the past with less-processed and un-processed FM
> radio, and those stations have tended to fail because people complain about
> static and about not being able to get the signal except in very small
> areas.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Greene" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>
>
>
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war! I had never heard the
>> "toothpaste" metaphor either, but it's a great, visceral image!
>>
>> Compression is a tool used all the time on radio. In fact radio may be a
>> prime driver of the trend.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Steve Greene
>> Audiovisual Archivist
>> Office of Presidential Libraries
>> National Archives and Records Administration
>> (301) 837-1772
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Smith, Allison <[log in to unmask]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> I am fascinated by this toothpaste discussion. I've never heard that
>>> term
>>> before! I tried googling "toothpaste and sound mastering" to get some
>>> further info, but only found a few very minor discussions (and a lot of
>>> information about toothpaste in general).
>>>
>>> Would someone please explain this to the group - or, send a link that
>>> does? Thanks!
>>>
>>> This is purely for my own interest...
>>>
>>> Allison
>>>
>>> ***********************************************************
>>> Allison A. Smith
>>> Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
>>> 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
>>> Madison, WI 53706-1497
>>> P (608) 263-8806
>>> F (608) 263-9763
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
>>>
>>> ***********************************************************
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 05:57 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on FLAC
>>> audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>>>
>>> The worst example of toothpasting ever was the last Metallica album
>>> (which
>>> still won a Grammy for album art and was nominated for heavy metal
>>> categories -- nice message about quality from the Grammy folks). The RMS
>>> average level on that CD is -3dBfs and it's totally clipped. It's so
>>> over-loud that it clips the analog stage of most playback systems,
>>> clipping
>>> an already clipped waveform. And when it's crunched to a lossy format, it
>>> clips further because of all the digital overs created by the crunching
>>> math and psycho-acoustic EQ stuff. Even sometimes hearing damaged metal
>>> fans hate the sound of that album. Music-wise, while it's not up to
>>> Metallica's prime standards, it was their best album in years and could
>>> have stood as a very powerful last stand against age and changing
>>> music/culture trends. But it sounds so bad, I don't think it will be
>>> remembered as something as good as the music.
>>>
>>> The mastering guys tell me that the biggest problem with the toothpasted
>>> stuff is that it's often delivered to them like that. Once a digital file
>>> has been committed to toothpasting, especially if it's done track by
>>> track,
>>> it can't be undone. Even if the toothpaste commitment came in the mixing,
>>> it's still an expensive and time-consuming endeavor to go back and remix
>>> it
>>> with civilized dynamics.
>>> The same is true with analog recordings, of course, and toothpasting was
>>> not invented in the DAW world (nor in rock music -- see Buddy Rich's
>>> 1970s
>>> Groove Merchant albums as an example of super-compressed jazz
>>> production).
>>>
>>> As I've said before, the thing that amazes me about toothpasting is that
>>> the drummers -- usually the tough guys in the band -- let the guitarists
>>> win and come out louder. Toothpasting hurts electric guitars the least
>>> and
>>> drums the most.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:35 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on FLAC
>>> audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>>>
>>>
>>> >I actually had a client not pay me about a year ago for a mastering job
>>> >because it wasn't touthpasted. They went and redid it with another
>>> >engineer who did. And they had the audacity
>>> >(Spelling?) to use my mixes without paying for them.
>>> > Shai
>>> > בתאריך 11/03/14 12:18 PM, ציטוט Tom Fine:
>>> >> Yes. I lump them with record company hacks.
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Cham" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:19 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>>> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> Let's not forget the producers in this. Back when I was very active
>>> >>> in recording, they were the main proponents of louder is better.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bob Cham
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Apple, because it's Apple, hates FLAC and refuses to allow it in
>>> >>>> iTunes. Meanwhile, Sony is belatedly putting on a big push for
>>> >>>> native DSD, including a hardware/marketing push. So it's likely to
>>> >>>> be muddled, SACD vs DVD-A all over again. That said, anything to
>>> >>>> promote higher-quality downloads is a Good Thing in my book. I
>>> >>>> include in that Mastered for iTunes, but note that the vast
>>> >>>> majority of material sold on iTunes was not well mastered or well
>>> converted to the lossy format. Newer stuff, if it carries the Mastered
>>> for
>>> iTunes certification is better.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On another front, I'm seeing slight signs of progress against
>>> >>>> terrible-sounding toothpaste MAKE IT LOUDER mastering. Just the
>>> >>>> fact that the high-rez downloads places are demanding reasonable
>>> >>>> dynamics is trickling down to the CD mastering. I've now heard
>>> >>>> enough tales of woe from mastering engineers -- "The Artist Made Me
>>> >>>> Do It" or "The Record Company Suit Made Me Do It" -- that I tend to
>>> believe them, that Make It Louder is completely the fault of tin-eared
>>> artists and record company hacks. But that doesn't make the results sound
>>> any better!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --Tom Fine
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Stamps"
>>> >>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:20 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resolution
>>> >>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech News and
>>> >>>> Analysis
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> I hope all the players update their software so FLAC will play on
>>> >>>>> everything, but unfortunately it's not possible since many players
>>> >>>>> (both software and hardware) sold and/or distributed in the past
>>> cannot be updated.
>>> >>>>> Tim
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Steve Greene wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> http://gigaom.com/2014/03/10/neil-young-wants-to-take-high-resolu
>>> >>>>>> tion-flac-audio-recordings-mainstream-with-pono/
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Stay tuned...
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Curious as to what kind of mass-market penetration you can make
>>> >>>>>> at that price-point. Is the audiophile market alone enough?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Steve
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> !DSPAM:639,531e5abb44331637612606!
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Cheers
>>> > Shai Drori
>>> > Timeless Recordings
>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>> > בברכה,
>>> > שי דרורי
>>> > מומחה לשימור והמרה של אודיו וידאו וסרטים 8-35 ממ.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>