There's a primary disconnect between "smart" phone manufacturers and the American public. 
Specifically, phone microphones get buried in the American jowl. iPhones are the worst. I notice the 
latest generation iPhone and some Samsung phones are longer, presumable to reach down closer to the 
mouth and not into the middle of the word-muffling jowl.

-- Tom Fine
(still using a Krzr flip-phone)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Smolian" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste


> The problem is now semi-universal.
>
> I use a landline telephone and continually receive calls so compessed and
> unitelligible that I have to ask to callers to speak slowly and move a bit
> back from their device.  It works sometimes.   I assume it's cellphones but
> could also be the transmission system.
>
> Steve Smolian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>
> Equally terrible is the broadcast signal of WCBS-AM, Newsradio 88. Between
> having reporters talk a few sentences into a cellphone and their massive
> over-compression, the "on location" reporting is often unintelligable. I
> grew up listening to Newsradio 88 and it was a textbook example of clearly
> audible human speech and excellent spoken-word news and actuarial production
> when I was a kid. Now it's reduced to disjointed, context-lacking bursts of
> low-intelligable words which may or may not make any sense.
>
> Along these lines, where did the idea come into radio that people need to
> speak so fast that they are throwing out words with little enunciation? Why
> is this "good"? Slow the hell down, say the words clearly and get the
> message across. And, no offense, but is radio the right job for people with
> speech impediments? Radio circa 2014 is full of such people, people who
> can't say "L" sounds correctly (it comes out as "W" sounds), people with bad
> lisps and a whole new generation of "millennials" who talk in questions. Are
> we now so politically correct that we can't demand clear, declarative
> English speech as a requirement for radio on-air employment? I'll save for
> another time the subject of TV "personalities" who are so unskilled that
> they can't properly read a teleprompter for a few seconds at a time, can't
> even manage to consistently spit out proper English sentences with a script
> right there in front of them.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Durenberger" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>
>
>>A good point..because it brings out an insensitivity (carelessness???)
> (indifference???) on the
>>part of broadcast engineers who don't notice this is an abnormal sound.
>>
>> Today's audio processing gear includes "gating" controls that are smart
> enough to hold gain in
>> place during syllabic breaks in exactly that sort of audio.  The
> properly-adjusted result can
>> actually be very pleasing...and there IS a romance about long-distance
> nighttime AM
>> listening...and fun to the other team's broadcaster when your team is
> visiting.
>>
>> But you're right...a lot of stations are guilty (both AM and FM).  They're
> misusing what can be
>> very effective audio control equipment.  For too many it's "plug-and-play
> and on to other things."
>> Tom Fine's NPR citation can include an examples of operations where folks
> DO care.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Mark Durenberger, CPBE
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Steve Greene
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 12:35 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>>
>> Worst broadcast example I can think of is baseball on AM radio. They are
>> now compressed to the point that the background noise: crowd noises,
>> sirens, the PA all meld into a wall of rumble just under the the levels of
>> the announcers. Thankfully, I can usually get games on FM now.
>>
>> Steve Greene
>> Audiovisual Archivist
>> Office of Presidential Libraries
>> National Archives and Records Administration
>> (301) 837-1772
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Mark Shakarjian
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>
>>> The link doesn't explain much. Would wiki take it down??
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from a device you don't need to know about
>>>
>>>
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "Smith, Allison" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi -
>>> >
>>> > Thanks a lot for the link.
>>> >
>>> > Regarding the Radio/Compression comment - that is sad.  However, WPR
>>> doesn't broadcast compressed material if we can help it.  We only
> broadcast
>>> compressed files that are not produced by us, and are sent to us that
> way.
>>>  Then, we have no choice.
>>> >
>>> > Our audio engineers are aware of the difference for the listener.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers!
>>> >
>>> > ***********************************************************
>>> > Allison A. Smith
>>> > Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
>>> > 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
>>> > Madison, WI   53706-1497
>>> > P (608) 263-8806
>>> > F (608) 263-9763
>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>> > It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
>>> >
>>> > ***********************************************************
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Greene
>>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 09:42 AM
>>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>>> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>>> >
>>> > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war! I had never heard the
>>> "toothpaste" metaphor either, but it's a great, visceral image!
>>> >
>>> > Compression is a tool used all the time on radio. In fact radio may be
> a
>>> prime driver of the trend.
>>> >
>>> > Steve
>>> >
>>> > Steve Greene
>>> > Audiovisual Archivist
>>> > Office of Presidential Libraries
>>> > National Archives and Records Administration
>>> > (301) 837-1772
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Smith, Allison <[log in to unmask]
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I am fascinated by this toothpaste discussion.  I've never heard that
>>> >> term before!  I tried googling "toothpaste and sound mastering" to get
>>> >> some further info, but only found a few very minor discussions (and a
>>> >> lot of information about toothpaste in general).
>>> >>
>>> >> Would someone please explain this to the group - or, send a link that
>>> >> does?  Thanks!
>>> >>
>>> >> This is purely for my own interest...
>>> >>
>>> >> Allison
>>> >>
>>> >> ***********************************************************
>>> >> Allison A. Smith
>>> >> Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
>>> >> 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
>>> >> Madison, WI   53706-1497
>>> >> P (608) 263-8806
>>> >> F (608) 263-9763
>>> >> [log in to unmask]
>>> >> It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
>>> >>
>>> >> ***********************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>>> >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 05:57 AM
>>> >> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>>> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>>> >>
>>> >> The worst example of toothpasting ever was the last Metallica album
>>> >> (which still won a Grammy for album art and was nominated for heavy
>>> >> metal categories -- nice message about quality from the Grammy folks).
>>> >> The RMS average level on that CD is -3dBfs and it's totally clipped.
>>> >> It's so over-loud that it clips the analog stage of most playback
>>> >> systems, clipping an already clipped waveform. And when it's crunched
>>> >> to a lossy format, it clips further because of all the digital overs
>>> >> created by the crunching math and psycho-acoustic EQ stuff. Even
>>> >> sometimes hearing damaged metal fans hate the sound of that album.
>>> >> Music-wise, while it's not up to Metallica's prime standards, it was
>>> >> their best album in years and could have stood as a very powerful last
>>> >> stand against age and changing music/culture trends. But it sounds so
>>> >> bad, I don't think it will be remembered as something as good as the
>>> music.
>>> >>
>>> >> The mastering guys tell me that the biggest problem with the
>>> >> toothpasted stuff is that it's often delivered to them like that. Once
>>> >> a digital file has been committed to toothpasting, especially if it's
>>> >> done track by track, it can't be undone. Even if the toothpaste
>>> >> commitment came in the mixing, it's still an expensive and
>>> >> time-consuming endeavor to go back and remix it with civilized
> dynamics.
>>> >> The same is true with analog recordings, of course, and toothpasting
>>> >> was not invented in the DAW world (nor in rock music -- see Buddy
>>> >> Rich's 1970s Groove Merchant albums as an example of super-compressed
>>> jazz production).
>>> >>
>>> >> As I've said before, the thing that amazes me about toothpasting is
>>> >> that the drummers -- usually the tough guys in the band -- let the
>>> >> guitarists win and come out louder. Toothpasting hurts electric
>>> >> guitars the least and drums the most.
>>> >>
>>> >> -- Tom Fine
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:35 AM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>>> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> I actually had a client not pay me about a year ago for a mastering
>>> >>> job because it wasn't touthpasted. They went and redid it with
>>> >>> another engineer who did. And they had the audacity
>>> >>> (Spelling?) to use my mixes without paying for them.
>>> >>> Shai
>>> >>> בתאריך 11/03/14 12:18 PM, ציטוט Tom Fine:
>>> >>>> Yes. I lump them with record company hacks.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Cham" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:19 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>>> >>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and
>>> >>>> Analysis
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Let's not forget the producers in this. Back when I was very
>>> >>>>> active in recording, they were the main proponents of louder is
>>> better.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Bob Cham
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Apple, because it's Apple, hates FLAC and refuses to allow it in
>>> >>>>>> iTunes. Meanwhile, Sony is belatedly putting on a big push for
>>> >>>>>> native DSD, including a hardware/marketing push. So it's likely
>>> >>>>>> to be muddled, SACD vs DVD-A all over again. That said, anything
>>> >>>>>> to promote higher-quality downloads is a Good Thing in my book. I
>>> >>>>>> include in that Mastered for iTunes, but note that the vast
>>> >>>>>> majority of material sold on iTunes was not well mastered or well
>>> >> converted to the lossy format. Newer stuff, if it carries the Mastered
>>> >> for iTunes certification is better.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On another front, I'm seeing slight signs of progress against
>>> >>>>>> terrible-sounding toothpaste MAKE IT LOUDER mastering. Just the
>>> >>>>>> fact that the high-rez downloads places are demanding reasonable
>>> >>>>>> dynamics is trickling down to the CD mastering. I've now heard
>>> >>>>>> enough tales of woe from mastering engineers -- "The Artist Made
>>> >>>>>> Me Do It" or "The Record Company Suit Made Me Do It" -- that I
>>> >>>>>> tend to
>>> >> believe them, that Make It Louder is completely the fault of tin-eared
>>> >> artists and record company hacks. But that doesn't make the results
>>> >> sound any better!
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> --Tom Fine
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Stamps"
>>> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:20 PM
>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resolution
>>> >>>>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech News and
>>> >>>>>> Analysis
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I hope all the players update their software so FLAC will play
>>> >>>>>>> on everything, but unfortunately it's not possible since many
>>> >>>>>>> players (both software and hardware) sold and/or distributed in
>>> >>>>>>> the past
>>> >> cannot be updated.
>>> >>>>>>> Tim
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Steve Greene wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> http://gigaom.com/2014/03/10/neil-young-wants-to-take-high-reso
>>> >>>>>>>> lu tion-flac-audio-recordings-mainstream-with-pono/
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Stay tuned...
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Curious as to what kind of mass-market penetration you can make
>>> >>>>>>>> at that price-point. Is the audiophile market alone enough?
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Steve
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> !DSPAM:639,531e5abb44331637612606!
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Cheers
>>> >>> Shai Drori
>>> >>> Timeless Recordings
>>> >>> [log in to unmask]
>>> >>> בברכה,
>>> >>> שי דרורי
>>> >>> מומחה לשימור והמרה של אודיו וידאו וסרטים 8-35 ממ.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>