LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


[email protected]


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  March 2014

ARSCLIST March 2014

Subject:

Re: Toothpaste

From:

"Smith, Allison" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:35:56 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/11/pronunciation-errors-english-language

I thought this was appropriate, given Tom's rant -

Allison

***********************************************************
Allison A. Smith
Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
Madison, WI   53706-1497
P (608) 263-8806
F (608) 263-9763
[log in to unmask]
It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe

***********************************************************


-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 01:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste

Equally terrible is the broadcast signal of WCBS-AM, Newsradio 88. Between having reporters talk a few sentences into a cellphone and their massive over-compression, the "on location" reporting is often unintelligable. I grew up listening to Newsradio 88 and it was a textbook example of clearly audible human speech and excellent spoken-word news and actuarial production when I was a kid. Now it's reduced to disjointed, context-lacking bursts of low-intelligable words which may or may not make any sense.

Along these lines, where did the idea come into radio that people need to speak so fast that they are throwing out words with little enunciation? Why is this "good"? Slow the hell down, say the words clearly and get the message across. And, no offense, but is radio the right job for people with speech impediments? Radio circa 2014 is full of such people, people who can't say "L" sounds correctly (it comes out as "W" sounds), people with bad lisps and a whole new generation of "millennials" who talk in questions. Are we now so politically correct that we can't demand clear, declarative English speech as a requirement for radio on-air employment? I'll save for another time the subject of TV "personalities" who are so unskilled that they can't properly read a teleprompter for a few seconds at a time, can't even manage to consistently spit out proper English sentences with a script right there in front of them.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Durenberger" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste


>A good point..because it brings out an insensitivity (carelessness???) (indifference???) on the 
>part of broadcast engineers who don't notice this is an abnormal sound.
>
> Today's audio processing gear includes "gating" controls that are smart enough to hold gain in 
> place during syllabic breaks in exactly that sort of audio.  The properly-adjusted result can 
> actually be very pleasing...and there IS a romance about long-distance nighttime AM 
> listening...and fun to the other team's broadcaster when your team is visiting.
>
> But you're right...a lot of stations are guilty (both AM and FM).  They're misusing what can be 
> very effective audio control equipment.  For too many it's "plug-and-play and on to other things." 
> Tom Fine's NPR citation can include an examples of operations where folks DO care.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Durenberger, CPBE
>
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Steve Greene
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 12:35 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>
> Worst broadcast example I can think of is baseball on AM radio. They are
> now compressed to the point that the background noise: crowd noises,
> sirens, the PA all meld into a wall of rumble just under the the levels of
> the announcers. Thankfully, I can usually get games on FM now.
>
> Steve Greene
> Audiovisual Archivist
> Office of Presidential Libraries
> National Archives and Records Administration
> (301) 837-1772
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Mark Shakarjian <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> The link doesn't explain much. Would wiki take it down??
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> Sent from a device you don't need to know about
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "Smith, Allison" <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi -
>> >
>> > Thanks a lot for the link.
>> >
>> > Regarding the Radio/Compression comment - that is sad.  However, WPR
>> doesn't broadcast compressed material if we can help it.  We only broadcast
>> compressed files that are not produced by us, and are sent to us that way.
>>  Then, we have no choice.
>> >
>> > Our audio engineers are aware of the difference for the listener.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> >
>> > ***********************************************************
>> > Allison A. Smith
>> > Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
>> > 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
>> > Madison, WI   53706-1497
>> > P (608) 263-8806
>> > F (608) 263-9763
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> > It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
>> >
>> > ***********************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Greene
>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 09:42 AM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
>> >
>> > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war! I had never heard the
>> "toothpaste" metaphor either, but it's a great, visceral image!
>> >
>> > Compression is a tool used all the time on radio. In fact radio may be a
>> prime driver of the trend.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> > Steve Greene
>> > Audiovisual Archivist
>> > Office of Presidential Libraries
>> > National Archives and Records Administration
>> > (301) 837-1772
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Smith, Allison <[log in to unmask]
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am fascinated by this toothpaste discussion.  I've never heard that
>> >> term before!  I tried googling "toothpaste and sound mastering" to get
>> >> some further info, but only found a few very minor discussions (and a
>> >> lot of information about toothpaste in general).
>> >>
>> >> Would someone please explain this to the group - or, send a link that
>> >> does?  Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> This is purely for my own interest...
>> >>
>> >> Allison
>> >>
>> >> ***********************************************************
>> >> Allison A. Smith
>> >> Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
>> >> 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
>> >> Madison, WI   53706-1497
>> >> P (608) 263-8806
>> >> F (608) 263-9763
>> >> [log in to unmask]
>> >> It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
>> >>
>> >> ***********************************************************
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 05:57 AM
>> >> To: [log in to unmask]
>> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>> >>
>> >> The worst example of toothpasting ever was the last Metallica album
>> >> (which still won a Grammy for album art and was nominated for heavy
>> >> metal categories -- nice message about quality from the Grammy folks).
>> >> The RMS average level on that CD is -3dBfs and it's totally clipped.
>> >> It's so over-loud that it clips the analog stage of most playback
>> >> systems, clipping an already clipped waveform. And when it's crunched
>> >> to a lossy format, it clips further because of all the digital overs
>> >> created by the crunching math and psycho-acoustic EQ stuff. Even
>> >> sometimes hearing damaged metal fans hate the sound of that album.
>> >> Music-wise, while it's not up to Metallica's prime standards, it was
>> >> their best album in years and could have stood as a very powerful last
>> >> stand against age and changing music/culture trends. But it sounds so
>> >> bad, I don't think it will be remembered as something as good as the
>> music.
>> >>
>> >> The mastering guys tell me that the biggest problem with the
>> >> toothpasted stuff is that it's often delivered to them like that. Once
>> >> a digital file has been committed to toothpasting, especially if it's
>> >> done track by track, it can't be undone. Even if the toothpaste
>> >> commitment came in the mixing, it's still an expensive and
>> >> time-consuming endeavor to go back and remix it with civilized dynamics.
>> >> The same is true with analog recordings, of course, and toothpasting
>> >> was not invented in the DAW world (nor in rock music -- see Buddy
>> >> Rich's 1970s Groove Merchant albums as an example of super-compressed
>> jazz production).
>> >>
>> >> As I've said before, the thing that amazes me about toothpasting is
>> >> that the drummers -- usually the tough guys in the band -- let the
>> >> guitarists win and come out louder. Toothpasting hurts electric
>> >> guitars the least and drums the most.
>> >>
>> >> -- Tom Fine
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:35 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I actually had a client not pay me about a year ago for a mastering
>> >>> job because it wasn't touthpasted. They went and redid it with
>> >>> another engineer who did. And they had the audacity
>> >>> (Spelling?) to use my mixes without paying for them.
>> >>> Shai
>> >>> בתאריך 11/03/14 12:18 PM, ציטוט Tom Fine:
>> >>>> Yes. I lump them with record company hacks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Cham" <[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:19 PM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
>> >>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and
>> >>>> Analysis
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Let's not forget the producers in this. Back when I was very
>> >>>>> active in recording, they were the main proponents of louder is
>> better.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Bob Cham
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Apple, because it's Apple, hates FLAC and refuses to allow it in
>> >>>>>> iTunes. Meanwhile, Sony is belatedly putting on a big push for
>> >>>>>> native DSD, including a hardware/marketing push. So it's likely
>> >>>>>> to be muddled, SACD vs DVD-A all over again. That said, anything
>> >>>>>> to promote higher-quality downloads is a Good Thing in my book. I
>> >>>>>> include in that Mastered for iTunes, but note that the vast
>> >>>>>> majority of material sold on iTunes was not well mastered or well
>> >> converted to the lossy format. Newer stuff, if it carries the Mastered
>> >> for iTunes certification is better.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On another front, I'm seeing slight signs of progress against
>> >>>>>> terrible-sounding toothpaste MAKE IT LOUDER mastering. Just the
>> >>>>>> fact that the high-rez downloads places are demanding reasonable
>> >>>>>> dynamics is trickling down to the CD mastering. I've now heard
>> >>>>>> enough tales of woe from mastering engineers -- "The Artist Made
>> >>>>>> Me Do It" or "The Record Company Suit Made Me Do It" -- that I
>> >>>>>> tend to
>> >> believe them, that Make It Louder is completely the fault of tin-eared
>> >> artists and record company hacks. But that doesn't make the results
>> >> sound any better!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --Tom Fine
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Stamps"
>> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:20 PM
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resolution
>> >>>>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech News and
>> >>>>>> Analysis
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I hope all the players update their software so FLAC will play
>> >>>>>>> on everything, but unfortunately it's not possible since many
>> >>>>>>> players (both software and hardware) sold and/or distributed in
>> >>>>>>> the past
>> >> cannot be updated.
>> >>>>>>> Tim
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Steve Greene wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> http://gigaom.com/2014/03/10/neil-young-wants-to-take-high-reso
>> >>>>>>>> lu tion-flac-audio-recordings-mainstream-with-pono/
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Stay tuned...
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Curious as to what kind of mass-market penetration you can make
>> >>>>>>>> at that price-point. Is the audiophile market alone enough?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Steve
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> !DSPAM:639,531e5abb44331637612606!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cheers
>> >>> Shai Drori
>> >>> Timeless Recordings
>> >>> [log in to unmask]
>> >>> בברכה,
>> >>> שי דרורי
>> >>> מומחה לשימור והמרה של אודיו וידאו וסרטים 8-35 ממ.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>
> 

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager