Sorry to join the conversation late and go back to an earlier point, but I do think this is important.  None of the three titles listed in Robert Bothmann's email would receive conventional collective titles.  Bill Robboy already explained that the third one is a compilation of works by different people.  The first and second examples are both compilations of works by a single creator that have become known by a specific title so 6.2.2 applies to them, just as it applies to our favorite examples--Leaves of Grass.  However, that doesn't make things any easier for the cataloger because the compilation shares the same title an individual work within the compilation.  "Falling up" is the name of one poem in the compilation of the same name and "The sentinel" is one short story in a compilation of the same name.  So now the cataloger has to decide whether to apply 6.27.1.9.  Our LC-PCC PS says that catalogers should test for conflict by searching in the catalog and may also take into account any known conflict even if it's not in the catalog.  If I were cataloging manifestations of these two compilations of works, I would not be able to put on blinders to the fact that there is a conflict so I would use 240s.  The problem is what to use because several of the elements that would apply to the compilation also apply to the individual work.  So if I had been able to apply 6.2.2.10 to these compilations, it would have been easier.  Frankly, for many compilations it is much easier to apply 6.2.2.10.3 than it is to determine 1) whether a compilation of poems by Author X is the same as a previously published compilation with the same title; 2) what is the most commonly known (or original edition title in case of doubt) title when a compilation has been published with multiple titles; and 3) if there is a conflict between two works by the same author with the same title.

Here are examples of possible applications of 6.27.1.9 to distinguish between the individual works and the compilations.  I'm sure there are other valid possibilities, and it's also possible that another cataloger would have determined that there was no need to apply the LC-PCC PS for 6.27.1.9.

Silverstein, Shel, author
Falling up (Compilation)
Falling up / poems and drawings by Shel Silverstein.


Clarke, Arthur C., author
Sentinel (1983)
The sentinel / by Arthur C. Clarke.


Kate James
Policy and Standards Division
Library of Congress


-----Original Message-----
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Turner
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 9:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Preferred title using "Poems. Selections" question

Whether or not conventional collective titles hide manifestation titles is a matter of how the catalog is structured.   In card catalogs, in the author's file, the title cards were filed under the collective title, with references from the manifestation titles.  Though this did not hide the manifestation titles (assuming users followed cross references) it de-emphasized them.    Duke has yet to have a catalog which successfully replicated those author/title references.   A catalog could theoretically file works with conventional collective titles in two places in under the author's name, fulfilling the aim of another "gathering title" which Tim advocates.  However, we haven't had a catalog that does that either.   So, it has come down to a choice of hiding either the manifestation title or the collective title.

My general aversion to uniform titles is not so much to their use in the 240 fields where they can be accessed in various ways, but to their use in "authorized access points for works and expressions."   We are supposed to be looking forward to linked data and to sophisticated systems that make it possible to access data in many ways.   Instead, we are trying to reduce complicated information about works and expressions into counter-intuitive character strings.

Amy


Amy Turner

Monographic Cataloger and Authority Control Coordinator Duke University Libraries

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-----Original Message-----
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carlton, Tim
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Preferred title using "Poems. Selections" question

Well-said (although some will assuredly quibble over saying 'most')!

As a former literature cataloger, I did see the benefit of conventional collective titles; for example, I want to find a selection of [whoever's] plays (or all of them, what the heck), and I don't particularly care which ones, and I may not even know the titles, or that others exist.  Especially if translation is a factor.  
And I don't understand the general aversion I'm seeing so often in the list to the very idea of a conventional collective title.  As you correctly note, we are not talking about hiding the manifestation title; the point is provision of another 'gathering title' (as some called 'uniform titles').' 
Judgment ..................

Here speaking for myself, NOT as a matter of LC policy.

Timothy J. Carlton
Senior Instructor
Cooperative and Instructional Programs (COIN) Library of Congress
202-707-5323
[log in to unmask]

The views expressed here are my own and I do not speak officially for the Library of Congress.



-----Original Message-----
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Arakawa, Steven
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 4:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Preferred title using "Poems. Selections" question

If someone were to write a book about Follow the blackbirds, it seems to me it is by definition well known under that title and the bibliographic record would be recataloged as part of the process of cataloging the critical work. But most poetry collections will never warrant a book or article written about them, so I don't expect it would happen often.  And in the meantime, the author of the book of criticism can contextualize Follow the blackbirds by retrieving the poet's other collections using the conventional collective title. It's not like catalogers would be suppressing the publication title. 

Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation  
Catalog & Metadata Services   
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University  
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240     
(203) 432-8286 [log in to unmask]




-----Original Message-----
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Turner
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 4:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Preferred title using "Poems. Selections" question

In the Duke University Libraries catalog (Endeca, one of the "next-generation catalogs" now in fashion), a search for "Follow the blackbirds" results in this hit (apologies for formatting that was be lost in transmission: to see the actual entry, follow the link:  http://search.library.duke.edu/search?sugg=is&source=duke&Nty=1&N=0&Ntk=Title&Ntt=follow+the+blackbirds):


Follow the blackbirds
Author: Westerman, Gwen.
Format: Book
Published:  East Lansing : Michigan State University Press, [2013] Perkins/Bostock Library Stacks Click for map
PS3623.E84767 F65 2013
Checked Out (due 05/15/14).

The only way that you can see that LC used a uniform title is to click on the title, and then on "details" where it is a part of a list:


Titles: 
Uniform Title: Poems. Selections
Authors:
Gwen Nell Westerman.
 Westerman, Gwen. 
Series:
American Indian Studies Series
 American Indian studies series (East Lansing, Mich.) Item Description:
Published: East Lansing : Michigan State University Press, [2013]
 Description: 72 pages ; 23 cm
 ISBN: 9781611860924 (pbk. : alk. paper)
 ISBN: 161186092X (pbk. : alk. paper)
 ISBN: 9781609173845 (ebook)
 OCLC Number: 826016001
Notes:
Gift of the Leona Bowman Carpenter Collection of English and American Literature

We catalogers have our complaints about Endeca, but I think in this case they got it right.   Collective uniform titles like this (and uniform titles in general) are not intuitive to the user, and hiding them in "details" is just fine by me.    BUT, if someone were to write a criticism of "Follow the blackbirds", following LC practice would result in a subject heading of: Westerman, Gwen. $t Poems. $k Selections (perhaps qualified to make it unique???).   

Amy




-----Original Message-----
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bothmann, Robert L
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Preferred title using "Poems. Selections" question

You are kidding me, right?

By that logic we would do this:

Silverstein, Shel, author
Poems. Selections
Falling up / poems and drawings by Shel Silverstein.


Clarke, Arthur C., author
Short stories. Selections
The sentinel / by Arthur C. Clarke.


Articles. Selections
Practical strategies for cataloging departments / edited by Rebecca L.
Lubas. 


[Also, in what universe does ³Poems. Selections² add clarity and/or meet FISO??]

Yes, I can see this PS being valid for a work without a collective title, but ³Follow the Blackbirds² is the collective title of the book of poems.

But LC really wants to do "<Form>. Selections² for every book of poetry, short stories, omnibus editions of novels, conference proceedings, edited theme editions of books, and every other collected works compilation with a collective title?

Is this PS really being interpreted correctly? Why would we ignore 6.2.2.4 RDA and its instruction to ³choose as the preferred title the title in the original language by which the work has become known² which is the title proper, ³Follow the Blackbirds²?


Bobby



On 3/31/14, 1:41 PM, "Adam L. Schiff" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>This is LC's policy.  The anthology is a compilation of works.  It 
>doesn't matter that they haven't been previously published elsewhere.
>LC policy is to assign a conventional collective title in these 
>situations.  See the LC-PCC PS at the alternative for 6.2.2.10.3:
>
>  LC practice for Alternative: Instead of recording the preferred title 
>for each of the works in the compilation, record a conventional 
>collective title followed by "Selections." Give an authorized access 
>point for the first or predominant work (Policy Statement 25.1) or 
>expression (Policy Statement 26.1).
>
>The LC-PCC PS for 25.1 says to disregard the last sentence above for 
>anthologies of poetry.
>
>--Adam Schiff
>
>**************************************
>* Adam L. Schiff                     *
>* Principal Cataloger                *
>* University of Washington Libraries *
>* Box 352900                         *
>* Seattle, WA 98195-2900             *
>* (206) 543-8409                     *
>* (206) 685-8782 fax                 *
>* [log in to unmask]           *
>**************************************
>
>On Mon, 31 Mar 2014, Bothmann, Robert L wrote:
>
>> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:57:53 +0000
>> From: "Bothmann, Robert L" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: Program for Cooperative Cataloging 
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Preferred title using "Poems. Selections" question
>> 
>> Please see the record for "Follow the Blackbirds" by Gwen Westerman, 
>>LCCN 2012046616 / OCLC ocn826016001
>>
>> Can anyone explain why there is a preferred title "Poems. Selections."
>>? I can't figure it out.
>>
>> While some of the poems in this book have been published in other 
>>places, this is a unique and original work of its own according to the 
>>author (who is also my neighbor and a colleague at my institution).
>>
>> I can't find anything in RDA that justifies this. No other work bears 
>>this title.
>>
>> Thanks for any light that can be shed.
>>
>> Bobby Bothmann
>>
>> ***********************************
>> Robert Bothmann
>> Metadata & Emerging Technologies Librarian Professor, Library 
>> Services Minnesota State University, Mankato P.O. Box 8419, ML3097 
>> Mankato, MN 56002
>> Voice: 507-389-2010
>> Fax: 507-389-5155
>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Adam L. Schiff
>Principal Cataloger
>University of Washington Libraries
>Box 352900
>Seattle, WA 98195-2900
>(206) 543-8409
>(206) 685-8782 fax
>[log in to unmask]
>http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~