LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


[email protected]


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  June 2014

ARSCLIST June 2014

Subject:

Re: Odd warble

From:

JAMES HOWARTH <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 4 Jun 2014 11:11:12 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (422 lines)

Just goes to show that not every cut Diamond yields a bright result. I have a persistent google listing that calls everything I’ve ever done fraudulent. Unbelieveably koo-koo and arrogant and factually wrong. 
But what can you do. It’s a nutty business. 

Jamie Howarth

On Jun 4, 2014, at 8:13 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> The people who make one of the major "sound improvement" software packages put out a CD of Edison Diamond Discs a few years back. It is unlistenable due to all the digital artifacts from overuse of their software. I pointed this out to them and they could not have been more rude and tin-eared dismissive. I will never buy one of their products, ever. They take the completely wrong approach to disk playback EQ in the first place (doing it in the digital domain), so most of their "features" are of no interest to me.
> 
> -- Tom Fine
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lewis" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 8:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Odd warble
> 
> 
>> Tom Fine: "Tape hiss "reduction" is even worse because it usually leaves
>> artifacts worse than the tape hiss."
>> 
>> Agreed. Usually my policy towards that is I will use noise reduction and
>> listen first to see particularly what the opening sounds like. If it's full
>> of those warbles, wobbles and chemical
>> sounds I will back out of it and go with the track as is. I'd rather hear
>> hiss than the alternative.
>> 
>> There is a guy on the web, whose stated specialty is removing "grinding
>> noises," that uses noise reduction in such an aggressive way that
>> practically nothing he transfers is listenable.
>> 
>> best,
>> 
>> Dave Lewis
>> Lebanon, OH
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:49 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> When did the obsession with click and tick removal begin? It may go back
>>> to broadcasting and the original Scott Impulse Noise Reducer. I think it's
>>> one of the dumbest obsessions in professional audio, right up there with
>>> obsessive tape-hiss "reduction" schemes in digital remastering (aka "Suck
>>> The Life Out Of Everything Code"). It's been proven time and time again
>>> that ordinary people enjoying recorded music hear right through disk
>>> surface noise and tape hiss. If one concentrates on using the best possible
>>> source material and doing superb analog playback, the known imperfections
>>> of analog media shouldn't be a problem.
>>> 
>>> Even dumber than the obsession with click and tick removal is the nip and
>>> tuck method, which creates permanent micro-errors in the timing and pacing.
>>> If one must mess with the dubbed tape, the John RR Davies method of
>>> "scrubbing away" the oxide where the tick or click lived was a better plan,
>>> because it preserved the entire time spectrum. In today's world, the only
>>> suitable method I've heard to both preserve the right audio sound quality
>>> and remove the (hopefully few) bad ticks and pops is to do it by hand in a
>>> waveform editor, to literally write-out the tick with the pencil tool. I
>>> will admit that some modern software solutions are quite good, and it's
>>> hard to hear the artifacts over speakers. But, if one listens carefully on
>>> headphones, the artifacts lurk in the background -- or the sonic balance
>>> has been reduced or altered vs an unprocessed playback. Tape hiss
>>> "reduction" is even worse because it usually leaves artifacts worse than
>>> the tape hiss.
>>> 
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kendall" <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 7:12 AM
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Odd warble
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes, come to think of it, declicking in 1984 was a choice of the Garrard
>>>> MRM (fast muting), the SAE 5000 (switching between direct and delayed
>>>> signal paths) or the Packburn (heavy top cut). Still, the worst of it, to
>>>> my ears, is the cut and shut tape editing. we all had to do it then, but
>>>> some of us took more care than others.
>>>> 
>>>> As regards full track tapes, undoubtedly the best arrangement, all things
>>>> being as they should, is a full track head. Playback of a partial width
>>>> involves degradation of s/n ratio and may result in incorrect frequency
>>>> response - spread gaps were not uncommon in those days, so the response
>>>> from the full width was an average of those obtained by the differing
>>>> effective gap lengths across the tape. This also affects the crossfade
>>>> effect on splices, for which the full tape width is desirable. That said,
>>>> phasing effects are both unpleasant and irremovable.
>>>> 
>>>> My own approach is to start with a decent transport - Richard and I both
>>>> like the A80, and I use a Telefunken M10A for the really awkward squad -
>>>> the trailing capstan holds the tape against the head so well it usually
>>>> doesn't even think about misbehaving. Then, a combination of a narrow guard
>>>> band butterfly head and azimuth correction software (Cedar) usually ensures
>>>> that the signal comes off straight and square.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 04/06/2014 11:33, Randy A. Riddle wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> The "warbles" show up in the same places on both the cd and lp versions
>>>>> of
>>>>> these Radiola lps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Goldin seemed to use different pressing facilities over time for his
>>>>> discs
>>>>> - perhaps a full track tape was played back with 2-track heads for
>>>>> mastering both the lp and cd versions of the release.  In 1984, though, I
>>>>> was thinking that your choices for cd mastering and pressing were much
>>>>> more
>>>>> limited and probably wouldn't be done at the same plant.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's a mystery we'll probably never figure out unless I get some more
>>>>> concrete info from Goldin himself on how he mastered these releases.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Randy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 6:13 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The digital artifact could well be an uncorrectable error with the
>>>>>> 1600/1630 system used to master the CD.As I recall, very brief
>>>>>> uncorrectable errors don't completely mute, or the mute is so short it
>>>>>> sounds like a digi-click-warble, like playing over a bad scratch on a
>>>>>> CD,
>>>>>> where there's a click/spike instead of program audio but not a mute.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That said, after hearing from Richard Hess and others, the warble could
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> from the analog domain, a bad nip and tuck splice played back
>>>>>> incorrectly
>>>>>> (splice made in FT, tape played for CD master on 2T machine).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> By the way, 2T playback of FT tapes is fairly rampant in the music
>>>>>> remastering world. I hear it on a lot of mono jazz CDs. Even if you get
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> azimuth perfect, there will still be channel differences on 50+ year old
>>>>>> tapes because of dropouts, warps, splices, etc. I can't understand why
>>>>>> every professional player-back of reel tapes doesn't have a FT head.
>>>>>> There
>>>>>> are lots of mono tapes out there. The problem with summing 2T channels
>>>>>> (another common practice) is that 50+ year old tapes rarely travel the
>>>>>> tape
>>>>>> path perfectly, so there ends up being "country lane-ing" and thus
>>>>>> azimuth
>>>>>> shifts and flange/phase artifacts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The latest flagrant example of all of these problems is the Record Store
>>>>>> Day special issue "Gems From Sun Records Vol 1." All of the content is
>>>>>> MONO, but try summing a stereo playback or playing the record with a
>>>>>> mono
>>>>>> cartridge. You will not be happy with the results. Listen especially to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> middle cuts on each side, which seems to have been made from the worst
>>>>>> warped/damaged tapes. Also the Charlie Rich cut. For most cuts, summing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> mono produces pumping phase/flange problems, indicating the master tapes
>>>>>> are badly warped, probably from vinegar syndrome, and aren't passing
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> the 2T play head smoothly. When played back in stereo, it's not annoying
>>>>>> because the anomolies are out on the sides and the high-spl content is
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the middle.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think Richard Hess and maybe others use special thinner FT heads,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> just read the center half of the track. I very much agree with this
>>>>>> method
>>>>>> and would definitely purchase such a head if I were about to undertake a
>>>>>> large job of 50+ year old FT tapes. I'm wondering about the ideal
>>>>>> head-track width, would it be akin to 1 track of a 2-track head but in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> middle of the head, or more akin to 1 track of a 1/2" 3-track head
>>>>>> (about
>>>>>> half again as large), in the middle of the head? The goal would be to
>>>>>> read
>>>>>> the "meat" of the track but not the edges, where warpage and shrinkage
>>>>>> leave less signal and more artifacts. I think you'd still have
>>>>>> country-laneing problems, but could the head itself be "cupped" to allow
>>>>>> warped top and bottom to just hang in space while the unwarped center
>>>>>> passed over the gap? Could guidance be made to allow that through the
>>>>>> tape
>>>>>> path?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellis Burman" <
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 3:04 PM
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Odd warble
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  I'm unaware of any digital restoration tools in 1984.  Those came a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> later, around 1987 (Sonic Solutions and Cedar).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> That said, these sound like interpolation artifacts.  Maybe there was
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> crude form of interpolation back then, or even just using editing to
>>>>>>> fix a
>>>>>>> loud thump.  It is made MUCH worse IMHO because, even though the audio
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> mono, they used a stereo cartridge and interpolated each channel
>>>>>>> separately, instead of combining the channels and working from a mono
>>>>>>> source file.  The ear is VERY sensitive to minor phase differences
>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>> channels.  If the work was done on a mono file instead, the
>>>>>>> interpolations
>>>>>>> would be much more palatable, as they would not be constantly
>>>>>>> distracting
>>>>>>> your ear away from the center mono image.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It doesn't sound like any (broadband) noise reduction was applied, but
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> guess "impulse noise reduction processing" would be an appropriate
>>>>>>> term.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> (the other) Ellis (from Los Angles)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Randy A. Riddle <
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  Tom --
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is the "warble" directly because of "nip and tuck" or do you think
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> exacerbated by the use of digital tools?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Were these digital tools commonly available around '84?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm thinking the best description in the discography I could use
>>>>>>>> might be
>>>>>>>> "artifacts from noise reduction processing".  Some releases are worse
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> others - this is one of the more annoying examples.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Randy
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It sounds like a combination of two bad practices -- overuse of
>>>>>>>>> digital
>>>>>>>>> "tools" which cause artifacts, and also bad nip and tuck splicing to
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> remove
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> bad ticks. I doubt that's a direct transfer to master of the disk. I
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> bet
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> the disk was dubbed to tape at some pre-digital time, the old nip and
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> tuck
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> method was employed, and then when it was time to remaster for CD,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> decided to over-use the newest "tools." The company that bought
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Goldin's
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> retail operation, Radio Spirits, is notorious for terrible digital
>>>>>>>>> processing. The only people I know who consistently make good audio
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> OTR transcriptions are Art Shifrin in Queens and a guy last name
>>>>>>>>> Ellis
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> sells MP3 and WAV downloads out of Virginia.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Speaking of Vic Damone, here's a dub of scatchy Mercury 78 promoting
>>>>>>>>> Damone's first 78 album:
>>>>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55748706/Mercury_Promo%
>>>>>>>>> 20-%20Virgil_Trucks.mp3
>>>>>>>>> some context: Jackie Smith was Mercury's pop promotions person out of
>>>>>>>>> Chicago. She ended up being a pioneering businesswoman in the
>>>>>>>>> midwest.
>>>>>>>>> Virgil "Fireball" Trucks pitched for the Detroit Tigers and later for
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Washington Senators. He and Smith must have worked together during
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> WWII.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Merc" was a smiley-faced cartoon "trademark" for the label, briefly
>>>>>>>>> replacing the stern-faced Mercury romanesque messenger head. It's
>>>>>>>>> clear
>>>>>>>>> that a record company wanting to take itself seriously would do away
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Merc" in its promotions, as Irving Green & Co quickly did. The other
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> side
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> of the 78 is a Vic Damone side from that album. I'm not sure if the
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> record
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> was meant to be played in stores or on-air. I didn't use anything to
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> clean
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> up the sound, so it's noisy. If someone wants to play with digi-tools
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> it, ping me offlist and I'll send you WAV.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy A. Riddle" <
>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 6:26 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Odd warble
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  Here's a sample that includes some "warbles".  It's a 14 mb .wav
>>>>>>>>> file
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> was ripped directly from the cd "Pop Singers on the Air!".
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The cd was issued in 1984, so this would have been some kind of
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> available during that time.  My guess is that it was some kind of
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> box that did click removal that was adjustable - in the sample, you
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> hear
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> the "warble" in addition to some broader surface noise on the
>>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>>>> transcription.  Again, you can hear the same "warbles" on both the
>>>>>>>>>> lp
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> cd versions of some of the Radiola releases, so it's in the master
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> tape
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> not an artifact of the media.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54210054/warble-sample-
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> radiola.wav
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Randy
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Paul Stamler <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  On 6/2/2014 8:03 PM, Ellis Burman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  Hi Randy.  Can you make short mp3 of just that section?  Maybe 10
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> seconds
>>>>>>>>>>>> or so?  Then you could use a higher bit rate, and hopefully
>>>>>>>>>>>> preserve
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> better.  If you make the section short enough, you can even send it
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> uncompressed WAV.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or a .flac file.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace,
>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Ellis
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> 818-846-5525
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager