Eugene,

The problem that I see with what you suggest is this:  what is the 
preferred title for this work?  If it is "East and South-East Asia", then 
you can't tack on a comma and the subtitle in the authorized access point 
for the work, because additions to the preferred title are recorded in 
parentheses.  If you have decided that the preferred title is "East and 
South-East Asia, international relations and security perspectives", then 
what you have recorded in your 245 can't be correct, because the usual 
basis for the preferred title is the title proper.  If the preferred title 
is "East and South-East Asia" then you could use (2013), but you could 
instead use (International relations and security perspectives) or (Tan) 
or any number of other things.  If the preferred title is "East and 
South-East Asia, international relations and security perspectives" (or 
"East and South-East Asia: international relations and security 
perspectives", which might even be better), then I think you would not 
have a subtitle in $b in the 245 field.

Adam Schiff

**************************************
* Adam L. Schiff                     * 
* Principal Cataloger                *
* University of Washington Libraries *
* Box 352900                         *
* Seattle, WA 98195-2900             *
* (206) 543-8409                     * 
* (206) 685-8782 fax                 *
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On Thu, 11 Sep 2014, Dickerson, Eugene H wrote:

> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:44:32 +0000
> From: "Dickerson, Eugene H" <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: NARs no2011170134 and no2013027752
> 
> Another problem is the whole ?other title information? question.
>
> I?m working on an e-book where the bibliographic record looks like this:
>
> 130  0     East and South-East Asia (2013)
> 245  10  East and South-East Asia : ?b international relations and security perspectives / ?c editor: Andrew T.H. Tan.
>
> I think that the cataloger followed the RDA guidelines as written in this case, but the so-called unique title is now a meaningless text string, certainly from the user perspective.
>
> I think that East and South-East Asia, international relations and security perspectives would be much better as a unique title than East and South-East Asia (2013).  At least a user would know what aspect of East and South-East Asia is being discussed in this resource and would do a much better job of identifying the resource and being able to select which one he or she wants.
>
> Of course, this problem isn?t unique to RDA.  Many meaningless text strings were created under AACR2 in the guise of ?uniform titles? that don?t help the user very much in terms of identification.
>
> The problem has gotten worse under RDA, though, with the guideline about having all preferred titles unique if there isn?t another data element associated with the title as an authorized access point.
>
> I would rather see us make better use of the data elements we have as part of the title, such as the ?other title information?, in making a unique preferred title rather than adding non-title data elements that aren?t going to be useful in identification to anyone other than a cataloger who knows what the data element is and why it was added.
>
> Gene
>
>
>
>
>
> Eugene Dickerson
> Team Leader for Cataloging
> Ralph J. Bunche Library
> U.S. Department of State
> Washington, DC
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> (202) 647-2191 (voice)
>
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stanley Elswick - NOAA Federal
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:18 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] NARs no2011170134 and no2013027752
>
> Well, whether 245 $p and $n remain should not necessarily be based on whether or not OCLC makes use of it. After all, they could alter their search to accommodate it.
>
> The real question is whether putting parts and numbers in separate subfields does anything useful, and whether that usefulness outweighs the complication of the 245. I am hard pressed at the moment to see much utility in the separate subfields. Someone may wish to point out how the separate subfields do some good.
>
> Stanley
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Stephen Early <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> (apologies for cross posting)
>
> What Kevin said:
>
> For instance, in OCLC?s Connexion Client, for whatever odd reason, there is no browse search that fully accommodates 245 $a, $p, $n, and $b .
> ?Title phrase? browses 245 $a and $b only, completely ignoring the presence of any $p and $n in between $a and $b.
> ?Title whole phrase? browses $a, $p, and $n, but omits $b.
>
> I agree that it may be time to bid farewell to 245 $p and $n.
>
> Stephen T. Early
> Cataloger
> Center for Research Libraries
> 6050 S. Kenwood
> Chicago, IL  60637
> 773-955-4545 x326
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> CRL website: www.crl.edu<http://www.crl.edu>
>
>
> This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
>
>
> From: Kevin M Randall [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:37 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: [RDA-L] RE: NARs no2011170134 and no2013027752
>
> I've wondered that for a long, long time!
>
> However, I've recently been thinking that maybe subfields $n and $p should be abolished, and the entire title proper should be in subfield $a.  (After all, the entire title proper goes into subfield $t in the 760-787 linking fields, with no separate subfielding of numbers/names of parts.)  Is there any benefit to having the numbers/names of parts separately subfielded?  It seems to just cause more trouble, most especially when $n and $p are ignored in title displays (like in lots of online catalog indexes?including in OCLC!).
>
> Kevin M. Randall
> Principal Serials Cataloger
> Northwestern University Library
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> (847) 491-2939
>
> Proudly wearing the sensible shoes since 1978!
>
> Why do monographs catalogers so dislike subfield $p?
>
> Michael S. Borries
> Cataloger, City University of New York
> 151 East 25th Street, 5th Floor
> New York, NY  10010
> Phone: (646) 312-1687
> Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> --
> Stanley Elswick
> NOAA Central Library
> 301.713.2607 x138
>
> The content of this msg., unless stated explicity otherwise, reflects only my personal views and not the views of the U.S. Government.
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
(206) 543-8409
(206) 685-8782 fax
[log in to unmask]
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
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