I'm not saying it's impossible that FFRR records were cut backwards, but I highly doubt it. I will
check with my Decca-expert friends at UMG and report back if I uncover any facts.
As far as tails out, doesn't "rewinding" the tape (which no one should do with a fragile old tape --
play it back at normal speed or use a very gentle library-wind mode -- provide the benefit of
reducing some print-through? We've discussed this on the Ampex list before, therre's some
research-proven benefit of fast-winding tape before playback, to reduce print-through. Jay McKnight
explained it in detail, it gets into physics beyond my pay grade. I apparently did not receive the
education some on this list have mentioned, because the whole concept of electromagnetism remains
somewhat vague to me.
-- Tom Fine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Burnham" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Tape tails out
> Steve, you've explained why tail out is preferred very eloquently. As far as the FFRR records are
> concerned, you may be right, but I can't see how they could calculate it so that the cut record
> would end, (start on playback), at the correct point on the disc, especially when margin control
> is employed. An advantage of cutting a record backwards, (as you alluded to in your comment on
> tail-out wind), is that sharp entries such as piano chords or bass drums, or cannon in the 1812,
> will not take the compressors by surprise.
>
> db
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 11, 2015, at 3:05 AM, Steve Smolian <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Since the attack is louder than the fade (this does not necessarily hold for electronic music),
>> print-through will be masked in the crescendo rather than left exposed in the decay.
>>
>> The same principle was why English Decca's FFRR records were cut backwards, from the center out,
>> or so I was told.
>>
>> Steve Smolian
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Ellis Burman
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 12:03 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Tape dubbing backwards?
>>
>> That is the right hand rule. Your thumb points in the direction of the
>> current, and your fingers curl in the direction of the magnetic field
>> around the wire.
>>
>> True, if a magnet is moving towards a pickup, it'll produce voltage
>> opposite that of when it is moving away from it. But I see it like Jamie
>> does - N is N, + is +. I guess I'll have to try it and prove it to myself.
>>
>> Kinda reminds me of the reason I've heard was to why people store tape
>> tails out - so that the print through is a post echo instead of a
>> pre-echo. I never understood that one either. It's the same distance from
>> oxide layer to oxide layer, so why would it matter? Why would the magnetic
>> field have a "preference" in any direction?
>>
>> Ellis
>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 2:58 PM, DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not analogous to playing a record backwards. If you think of a phono
>>> cartridge, as a wave of the groove moves the stylus towards the spindle,
>>> the output will be of a certain polarity; if the stylus moves towards the
>>> edge of the record, the opposite polarity will be presented. Whether the
>>> record is playing forwards or backwards the wave towards the spindle will
>>> always be towards the spindle and the polarity won't be reversed.
>>> With tape, however, if the tape is playing backwards, the magnetic signal
>>> on the tape will be exciting the coils in the opposite direction, causing a
>>> reverse in the polarity. You might remember from school, (if you took the
>>> same courses as I took), where they drop a magnet through a coil and an
>>> electric signal is present at the terminals of the coil. If the magnet
>>> goes through the coil in the opposite direction the signal is also in the
>>> opposite direction, plus in one direction minus in the other. I know there
>>> was a formula where if you hold up your hand with the fingers curled and
>>> the magnet travels in the direction of your thumb, the current will flow in
>>> the direction of your fingers, but unfortunately I've forgotten if it was a
>>> left hand rule or a right hand rule.
>>> I'm sure somebody knows.
>>> db
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 4:45 PM, Ellis Burman <
>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> So, the same program was recorded on tracks 1 and 4?
>>>
>>> Ellis
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi Ellis:
>>> >
>>> > No, I was just looking at a scope with spoken-word material on the top
>>> and
>>> > bottom track. They were also recordings from transcription records, so
>>> > there was quite a bit of record noise. I was surprised how many times
>>> there
>>> > would be a loud sound at the same time for both tracks, often enough to
>>> > verify that azimuth wasn't way off. This is inexact, to say the least,
>>> but
>>> > everything sounded surprisingly good.
>>> >
>>> > The whole 4 tracks at once thing gets into craft vs. science.
>>> >
>>> > -- Tom Fine
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellis Burman" <
>>> > [log in to unmask]>
>>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 3:18 PM
>>> >
>>> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Tape dubbing backwards?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Tom. If is was a 4-track mono tape, how did you check the azimuth?
>>> >> Was
>>> >> there phase coherent tones or pink noise on all four tracks? That >> seems
>>> >> highly unlikely to me.
>>> >>
>>> >> Best,
>>> >>
>>> >> Ellis Burman
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I've never tried doing all four tracks of a quarter-track stereo of
>>> >>> high-fidelity music all at once using my Tascam 44-OB, but I have had
>>> no
>>> >>> problems doing some OTR (4-track mono) tapes. The quality going in
>>> >>> sucked,
>>> >>> so the client was very happy to save money not paying for 4 passes
>>> across
>>> >>> the heads. I was actually surprised at how good it did sound. He told
>>> me
>>> >>> his dubs were second-generation from transfers of transcriptions (so
>>> >>> either
>>> >>> 3rd or 4th generation from the transmission line). He had been smart
>>> >>> enough
>>> >>> to use a good quality deck (I forgot he told me it was Pioneer or >>> Teac,
>>> >>> later-generation so with direct drive capstan and decent azimuth
>>> >>> stability). On my scope, the azimuth looked OK between tracks 1 and 4,
>>> >>> so I
>>> >>> figured I was probably getting pretty good fidelity out of all 4
>>> tracks,
>>> >>> especially considering the relatively lo-fi source. His smartest moves
>>> in
>>> >>> making the tapes were doing them at 7.5IPS and using well-slit Maxell
>>> UD
>>> >>> tape. We also transferred at double speed (7.5IPS of 3.75IPS >>> material),
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> again this did not effect the sound quality of OTR source material >>> very
>>> >>> negatively. The guy got 4 hours of transfer material for every half
>>> hour
>>> >>> of
>>> >>> tape machine on the clock time. As I said up front, I would never do
>>> this
>>> >>> for high-fidelity musical recordings.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -- Tom Fine
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L. Hess" <
>>> >>> [log in to unmask]>
>>> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:49 AM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Tape dubbing backwards?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Some of the four-track in-line heads cheated down a little from the
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> standard 43 mil track width, but I think it was down to 38 mils to
>>> allow
>>> >>>> for better crosstalk. This is not well documented...but then again we
>>> >>>> have
>>> >>>> a variation of at least 75-82 mils in "NAB" two track heads. At this
>>> >>>> point,
>>> >>>> if one is dealing with more than three tracks on 1/4-inch tapes there
>>> >>>> are
>>> >>>> usually larger issues than this.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 2015-03-09 9:09 PM, Dave Radlauer wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Careful there, I don't think there's a one to one relation between
>>> >>>>> 4-track
>>> >>>>> and 1/4 track formats, but I'm sure more knowledgeable voices will
>>> >>>>> chime
>>> >>>>> in.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Dave R
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> --
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>> Richard L. Hess email: [log in to unmask]
>>> >>>> Aurora, Ontario, Canada 647 479 2800
>>> >>>> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
>>> >>>> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Ellis
>>> >> [log in to unmask]
>>> >> 818-846-5525
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ellis
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> 818-846-5525
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ellis
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 818-846-5525
>
>
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