LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


[email protected]


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  April 2015

ARSCLIST April 2015

Subject:

Re: SACD "surprise"

From:

Carl Pultz <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 4 Apr 2015 13:19:59 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

I hope Goran Finnberg can straighten us out on 4D.

A lot can be said about this concept. As a listener, I'm not dogmatic. I like the work of Paul Vavasseur, for many years EMI's man in Paris. This is probably what Glenn Gould was thinking of when he spoke about the European style as "wedging the microphone into the lighting grid," a photographic wide-shot. On the Debussy sessions he did for Martinon the sound is magical and highly informative, and in no way buried in ambience. A musician might call it 'honest.' It is distant and my guess is a coincident pair, perhaps MS. I'm drawn into it in a different way than with many closer-up views.

Gould of course was a Columbia man, and I've wondered if he influenced the house sound or if it was they who influenced him. To me that is the sound of Stravinsky and Gershwin and Copland, but not, say, Rachmaninoff. Some orchestrations need space for the sonorities to develop. Gould rejected recording as documentary of a particular occasion, so the idea of picturing the environment as a goal was absurd to him. He did play around with extremes. I'd point to his recordings of Sibelius' Sonatinas as a cool and wacky experiment in varied perspectives.

As a maker of recordings, OTOH, my goal is to make a sound the musicians are going to like. They want to sound the way they think they sound. Put another way, they want the effect they were intending to be recognizable. That can be close or it can be distant. Depends. A good signal path should support plenty of detail without claustrophobia.

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 10:31 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] SACD "surprise"

Hi Carl:

I can't recall if it was Yamaha or Studer digital consoles, but I think you are correct in your descriptions of "4D". being a true DDD system in that the last time anything was analog was when the mic plugged into the console and the mic preamp went to a ADC.

To my ears, DGG recordings epitomize to varying degrees the notion of "put the listener in this glorious reverberant environment." I just don't think it works well in most home-listening situations because it's not engaging all too often. There are exceptions. Some of their early stereo recordings were made with very few to relatively few mics, placed closer in, so there is a better balance of sound sources to reverberation. Some of their later material was also more "intimate,"
and I think they had problems with venues in Chicago, so picking on Boulez's recording might be an exaggeration.

That said, I look on classical recordings as being something very different from a live performance.
I'm looking for different things from a recording -- I want to hear the arrangement more clearly and hear individual playing within the ensemble. I also want to hear and understand what the conductor is doing to put his mark on the recording, what he's telling me is different and therefore worth my time listening, so I can decide within my own aesthetic whether I'm buying what he's selling. The concert experience, because it is visual and social as well as aural, is not as sharply focused on the SOUND, the elements of the whole. I would say, in a concert, the total presentation and how it makes the audience FEEL is more important than the fine details of how the piece was actually played (although if anyone really screws up, it will make the feeling go sour). So, the "put the listener in this glorious reverberant environment," unless the primary sounds are in very sharp focus and the reverb is used as a way to add realism and depth-perspective, detracts from my enjoyment of a recording. This is all just one man's listening perspective, but it is based on decades of close critical listening and experience with thousands of recordings. It's a matter of taste, so others may listen completely differently and want something different out of a recording.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pultz" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] SACD "surprise"


>A popular phrase in the NY Phil as PB was about to replace LB: "The ice-man comith."
>
> "It is often said that Boulez has 'a terrific ear.' But Boulez's terrific ear extends only to
> pitches and to some extent to intonation. There are many other things which Boulez's ear does not
> hear." - Gunther Schuller, The Complete Conductor
>
> My recollection is that the 4D thing utilized a Yamaha digital board, modified for DG, which I
> think maxed out at 48k. One of the capabilities they remarked on was the ability to delay spot
> mics relative to the mains, giving control over phase problems and some creative choices in
> building the soundstage. I use that idea all the time when mixing with DAW software.
>
> DG seemed to always pursue a smooth, homogenous sound, not unlike Herby-the-K's orchestral
> approach. Many early stereo releases placed you in a nice relationship between the forest (a view
> of the whole ensemble) and the trees (intimate detail), and retained the energetic feeling of the
> performance. But what I've come to expect is sound that is to my sense too smooth and short on
> that spark of life, whatever its perspective on the ensemble. Still, it is a creative choice that
> was very successful in the marketplace. And some things, like LB's CSO Shostakovich set is
> spectacular.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Tom Fine
> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 8:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] SACD "surprise"
>
> John is now firmly on record as NOT being a fan of Pierre Boulez! ;)
>
> Not to boil John's blood further, but this article about Boulez and his influence on some
> conductors and composers was in the NYTimes last weekend:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/arts/music/musicians-discuss-the-influence-of-pierre-boulez.html
>
> I actually reserved the original DGG CD from the local library system. I want to see if it really
> sounds as far-away as those sound samples on Arkiv. What I heard of Firebird wasn't so bad as far
> as pacing. I prefer LISTENING to something more fast and furious like Dorati/LSO, but I bet
> Boulez's approach is more how it's done as a ballet that people can actually dance to without
> breaking apart onstage.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Haley" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 11:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] SACD "surprise"
>
>
>> An even better question to ask is this--with so many excellent Stravinsky
>> recordings to chose from, why bother with this one at all?
>>
>> I have to admit that the cover is sort of cool, but otherwise I would
>> quickly gravitate to a more masterful conductor's recording.
>>
>> Best,
>> John Haley
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This appears to be some kind of digital fraud.
>>>
>>> Look at the original CD details:
>>> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2589
>>> The album was recorded in 1992. Exactly what high-resolution digital
>>> recording system existed in 1992? DGG was using a Studer system that
>>> operated at most at 48kHz/16-bit. There is an outside possibility that they
>>> were running analog tape backups, but I don't think so based on articles
>>> I've read about this "4D" thing they were touting.
>>>
>>> The MOST RESOLUTION POSSIBLE from this recording is whatever was the
>>> original recording medium. Up-converting it DOES NOT ADD MORE RESOLUTION.
>>> It may change the sound in some way that some people prefer, some sort of
>>> euphony involved with conversion to DSD and DSD-to-analog, perhaps.
>>>
>>> This sort of thing makes the Japanese reissue guys look a little batty.
>>> The other one that's really odd is a series called something like "BluDisc"
>>> that seems to suggest the CDs are made on the same equipment as BluRay
>>> discs and thus have "more precise" pits and lands. I've seen no scientific
>>> presentations or papers anywhere suggesting this offers any audible
>>> improvements. For what it's worth, I was loaned one of these CDs of a
>>> Mercury album, apparently made from the same digital master or a
>>> bit-perfect copy, as the CDs produced by the plant in Germany. As I
>>> suspected, no analysis software I could find revealed ANY DIFFERENCE in the
>>> CDs, and they sounded identical, to my ears. More importantly, they both
>>> ripped bit-identical files using dBPowerAmp's CD ripper with Accurip. I
>>> will say that it's possible that these "BluDics" are easier to read and
>>> thus perhaps produce fewer corrected errors in some inferior CD players.
>>>
>>> It's also worth reading the review included on the ArkivMusic descriptor
>>> page linked above. This is one of those DGG way-distant recordings where
>>> the orchestra sounds like it's a football field away from the mics. That
>>> whole "4D" process was never really detailed by DGG, it was apparently just
>>> a full integration of DGG recording techniques with Studer digital
>>> equipment, and was the subject of some mocking, especially by British hi-fi
>>> and pro-audio magazines in the 90s. To my ears, I don't care what digital
>>> system they were using as much as I care that everything sounds like it was
>>> recorded across a large space from the music, or in an echo chamber. Very
>>> few DGG recording sound very detailed or intimate, to my ears. They make
>>> the listener a spectator from a distance rather than a participant in the
>>> music.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Long" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 5:52 PM
>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] SACD "surprise"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I get promotional e-mails from www.elusivedisc.com, mostly about vinyl.
>>>> The prices for the 45-rpm issues (about $50) are beyond my ability to pay
>>>> 99% of the time. Now I see they are offering Esoteric SACD reissues for
>>>> $65! See <
>>>> www.elusivedisc.com/Stravinsky-The-Firebird-Fireworks-SACD/productinfo/
>>>> ESOSA90118/&utm_source=email&utm_medium=special
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Has anyone been impressed by this (and other) Esoteric SACD reissues?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager