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DATETIME  July 2015

DATETIME July 2015

Subject:

Re: Open-end interval

From:

"Edward C. Zimmermann" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Discussion of the Developing Date/Time Standards <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:35:49 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

Hi All,

I agree: It makes little sense to try to specify an unbounded interval of 
time in both directions. I will even argue that it makes no sense to even 
try to specify an unbounded interval in any direction.

This is, I think, really no different from wanting to specify the range of 
mass for an object  as being unbounded. It is NEVER unbounded. The smallest 
particle can not be  sub-divided ad-infinitum. The mass of an object can't 
grow and grow. The  Universe is widely accepted this days as not unbounded. 
There are limits.

This is really quite different from uncertain or unknown bounds. If  I say  
the film Minions runs open ended from 10 July 2015 I don't mean to say that  
it will run forever--- not even to the "End of Days" (Torah Numbers 24:14,  
which is a bounded  moment that is, as yet, unknown to us)-- only that it  
will run to some moment in the future that is currently beyond my 
knowledge. It is not an open interval into the future but an interval of 
time that ends at some time I don't know. It is really no different from 
other times we discussed where we don't know something or are uncertain.

In the other direction too we can't speak of dates prior to the "Big Bang". 
Cultures all seem to have a start of time. Abrahamic time is created after 
Beraschit: the creation of light and the seperation of darkness. From a 
Kantian prespective we can't speak of an unbounded apriori. Since we can't 
distinguish time from before this time  we can't consider it time since it 
provides no basis to distinguish one moment from another.

When someone says "up till now it has always been so".. they don't means to 
say unbounded to now. They mean from some unspecified time before now.

For this we have, I think, long specified the solution. 


On Thu, 30 Jul 2015 05:05:08 +0000, Hakala, Juha E wrote
> Hello [UTF-8?]Saašha,
> 
> I have just a practical explanation why ?/? and other options you listed 
below should not be allowed.
> 
> To me, in the context of ISO 8601, an interval which is open at both ends 
is not meaningful. Either the end or the beginning of interval has to be 
specified since the meaning of ?/?, "/" and all the other intervals with 
unspecified or unknown beginning and end could be understood to mean 
eternity. Which is different from e.g. the age of the universe; that could 
be specified as an open ended interval starting from big bang about 13.798 
billion years ago.
> 
> We may of course assume that there is a platonic world of philosophical 
and other ideas out there, so when someone in India invented zero he/she 
just brought down to us something that has been there waiting for us out 
there even before the big bang. But I would not use this approach with ISO 
8601. I'd rather specify an open ended interval starting from the first 
known or estimated occurrence of zero in surviving documents (I guess this 
is the librarian's approach to implementing ISO 8601 :-)).
> 
> One problem with encoding the age of ideas with ISO 8601 is that you 
would need to decide what belongs to the world of ideas and what was 
invented by us. Or, as German mathematician Leopold Kronecker put it, "God 
made the integers, all else is the work of man".
> 
>  Best regards,
> 
> Juha
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Discussion of the Developing Date/Time Standards
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [UTF-8?]Saašha 
Metsrantala
> > Sent: 29. heinkuuta 2015 16:18
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Open-end interval
> > 
> > Hello!
> > 
> > Thanks for all those interesting suggestions!
> > 
> > As I understand our situation, the aim of our focus shift from EDTF to 
ISO-
> > 8601-2 is not only a way to try to give this standard deeper roots but 
also a
> > shift from a focus on date representations within the library/ archive
> > "culture" to a wider world of digital representation of date-time 
information.
> > 
> > Keeping this in mind, I consider that we would need a deeper 
explanation to
> > clarify why "unknown at both ends"
> > 
> > > a construct like ?/? would be explicitly forbidden (as would "/" for 
open at
> > both ends).
> > 
> > This wider world may include, for example, philosophical ideas. Let's 
consider
> > a "software" (or schema or some future something ...) requiring date
> > information for (philosophical / ideological) assertions. How would we 
date
> > the assertion / belief that
> > 
> > "1 + 1 = 2"
> > 
> > (assuming that the characters within this assertion keep today's 
meaning)?
> > Other examples are welcome, of course. In other words, I suggest to 
clarify
> > EITHER what "/" and "?/?" (as well as "/?" and "?/") would mean and in 
which
> > cases these may be useful (in a wider perspective) OR more exactly why 
we
> > choose to reject them.
> > 
> > Regards!
> > 
> > [UTF-8?]Saašha,


--

Edward C. Zimmermann, NONMONOTONIC LAB/BSn

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