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ARSCLIST  September 2015

ARSCLIST September 2015

Subject:

Re: W.C. Handy Docu

From:

Sarah Bryan <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 12 Sep 2015 14:12:19 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (313 lines)

Actually, I disagree that Fish's budgeting approach is a sign of lack of
financing experience, or of being too hasty. It's quite in line with the
process for applying for many major arts grants, and perhaps that's where
this producer's approach comes from. When you apply to the NEA or the NEH,
for example, for an amount in the range of what Fish is trying to
crowd-fund here, it's perfectly acceptable to give an estimate of what a
component of the project will cost, and for that estimate to be based on a
range of proposals, as Fish says that hers is. In my experience, it's not
required that one have a firm guarantee from a contractor that the job will
cost no more than x-amount. If she were applying for a grant in a much
larger amount, it would absolutely be expected that she present a letter of
commitment from the person or company chosen to do the editing; but even
then the agency would be unlikely to require a guaranteed quote. And if
you're only asking for $22,000 total, an estimate based on a range of
quotes is perfectly reasonable. Presumably the granting panel will have
enough experience to judge wether that estimate is reasonable.

It goes without saying that in these situations it's a good idea to request
a little above what you need; you need to build in that leeway in case the
grant is made but for a lower amount than requested, or in case of
unforeseen cost overruns. If a component of the work ends up costing less
than you budgeted for, it's understood that those funds will be allocated
elsewhere in the project. In my experience that's the understanding in
crowd-funding as well -- if you raise more money than you actually need,
you use the funds to supplement the budget in another part of the project.
Now, of course in grants there's a process of accountability after the
fact, and you have to be able to show how the funds were used; that's one
way in which crowd-funding is inferior, from the perspective of the donor.
And of course it's the prerogative of the donor to decide whether the pitch
is realistic enough; in those cases, one just doesn't donate, right?



On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Sarah,
>
> That part, I agree with you. She's not incompetent at all. You may be
> perceiving some of the comments as sexist, and I can see that point of
> view. I think Ms. Fish hasn't done complete homework as far as the project
> budget. That's being hasty as far as pulling the crowd-funding trigger. I
> think many people who seek crowd-funding make this mistake and I think the
> crowd-funding sites (which take a cut of everything) are partly to blame,
> for not requiring firm budgets and timetables and then vetting applications
> thoroughly. There's a business opportunity for someone who wants to start
> an arts and entertainment oriented crowd-funding system that includes
> careful review of applications, requirements for tight budget and timetable
> controls, and overall more professional look and feel. I think such a
> business would attract money from a higher class of patron, and some very
> worthwhile art and entiertainment could be created (and actually see the
> light of day).
>
> Somewhat related to this, I can see the day when a music group will have
> to solicit pre-orders for physical media, because their label won't commit
> to much if any of a production run. Amazon already facilitates a version of
> this, where fans can pre-order with a link from the artist's website (other
> retailers also offer this service). Amazon can then have a better idea of
> its order to the label (there are no returns these days, so retailers have
> to sell through all the inventory they order). The artists can also offer
> this through Facebook, Twitter and other social media. Younger fans are
> tuned into this, I've heard of thousands of pre-orders popping up the day
> an artist announces an album, even if it's 6 months from release date. The
> key to all of this, including crowd-funding, is a desire to pre-know demand
> for something. It's a natural business instinct, to really know your market.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Bryan" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 9:40 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] W.C. Handy Docu
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>>
>> What perplexes me is not that list members would disagree with her
>> crowd-funding methods, or even her opinion of what the appropriate range
>> of
>> potential costs are for editing. Those are perfectly valid grounds for
>> debate. What I'm wondering is why those disagreements should lead to the
>> conclusions that she's "being taken for a ride" or not "up to the task for
>> the financial skills." It seems like a quite a leap, from disagreement to
>> assumed incompetence.
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sarah:
>>>
>>> You make a good partial point, but I don't think any Ms. Fish's previous
>>> experience was in financing a project. The artistic responsibilities and
>>> skills are very different from the financial. Me personally, I don't
>>> think
>>> the project is without merit, not in the least (to re-spin the double
>>> negatives -- I think it's a fabulous topic for a documentary). However, I
>>> am concerned that Ms. Fish may not fully be up to the task for the
>>> financial skills required by an executive producer. The more we discuss
>>> this, the more it worries me that she quotes a decent-sized "price range"
>>> for the editing. She should have nailed down a firm quote with a
>>> post-production group she's comfortable with before seeking funding. I
>>> wouldn't want to donate money to this project until Ms. Fish produced a
>>> firm line-by-line budet and timetable. What is difficult about that?
>>> Professionals are required to provide firm price quotes and timetables
>>> all
>>> the time. And by the way, if she did this, given the excellent subject
>>> matter and track record in the artistic end of the business, I don't
>>> think
>>> she'd have any trouble raising the funds she needs. If she did so and
>>> then
>>> delivered on time and on budget, she would be a stand-out in the
>>> crowd-funding world.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Bryan" <[log in to unmask]
>>> >
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 7:56 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] W.C. Handy Docu
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm taken aback by list members' seemingly automatic assumption that this
>>>
>>>> producer doesn't know what she's doing. What is this based on? If you
>>>> think
>>>> the project is without sufficient merit, don't donate to the fundraising
>>>> campaign. But if you look at Joanne Fish's professional history, you'll
>>>> see
>>>> that this "want-to-be-producer with good intentions" has in fact been a
>>>> producer for more than thirty years, and has been nominated for seven
>>>> Emmys
>>>> (and won one). I don't know her personally or know anything about the
>>>> project beyond what I've read online, but I suspect that someone who's
>>>> been
>>>> in film and TV production for more than 30 years, including for major TV
>>>> networks, probably has a pretty decent idea of what editing costs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 7:29 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Based on the few video-production projects I've worked, high-quality
>>>>
>>>>> documentary post-production and editing is some of the slowest going.
>>>>> Even
>>>>> the best modern computers need grinding time to render the HD video,
>>>>> and
>>>>> even a super-efficient editor gets slowed down by his or her machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone who contemplates participating in this crowd-funding campaign
>>>>> might ask if the woman is GUARANTEED the 15-18k price by the
>>>>> editor/post-production crew. Will they CAP it at 18k? If not, she may
>>>>> well
>>>>> need more money. A true professional hates to cap a labor-intensive
>>>>> project's cost, but we all do it to get the work.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Radlauer" <[log in to unmask]
>>>>> >
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 7:05 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] W.C. Handy Docu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Studio rate say $175/hr.  For PROFESSIONAL work is 125 studio hours,
>>>>>
>>>>> perhaps including the requisite post-production sound editing, sound
>>>>>> design
>>>>>> and narration work, also not cheap for PROFESSIONAL services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For a creative production with major release ambitions, a pittance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She'll need more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave R
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Aaron Levinson <
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There most certainly is. Someone is taking her for a ride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 6:30 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Wow.  She wants to raise the $22,000 largely to pay for editing the
>>>>>>> film.
>>>>>>> > That has to be a cheaper way to edit a film like that.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Best,
>>>>>>> > John Haley
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Dave Radlauer <
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Hi --
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I know the producer, Joanne Fish.
>>>>>>> >> https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/11426512
>>>>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9E_ZDTIjRU
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> She's a want-to-be-producer with good intentions striving to
>>>>>>> develop
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> >> make this doc.
>>>>>>> >> https://www.facebook.com/MrHandysBlues
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mr-handy-s-blues-a-musical-documentary#/story
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Dave R
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:27 AM, David Lewis <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> First of all, I have nothing to do with this campaign; the link
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> sent
>>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>>> >>> me courtesy of a librarian friend. It looks like a very
>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>> >>> project,
>>>>>>> >>> yet her campaign seems not very close to its goal.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mr-handy-s-blues-a-musical-documentary#/story
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> best,
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> David N. Lewis
>>>>>>> >>> Hamilton, OH
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>> >> hm# 510-848-8323
>>>>>>> >> cell# 510-717-5240
>>>>>>> >> www.JAZZHOTBigstep.com
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> hm# 510-848-8323
>>>>>> cell# 510-717-5240
>>>>>> www.JAZZHOTBigstep.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> **************************
>>>> Sarah Bryan
>>>> http://sarah-bryan.com
>>>> http://glassdarkly-sarahbryan.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> www.oldtimeherald.org
>>>> **************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> **************************
>> Sarah Bryan
>> http://sarah-bryan.com
>> http://glassdarkly-sarahbryan.blogspot.com
>>
>> www.oldtimeherald.org
>> **************************
>>
>>
>>


-- 

**************************
Sarah Bryan
http://sarah-bryan.com
http://glassdarkly-sarahbryan.blogspot.com

www.oldtimeherald.org
**************************

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