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ARSCLIST  November 2015

ARSCLIST November 2015

Subject:

Re: Dating a Presto Recording Corp. Transcription Disc Label

From:

Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:15:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (196 lines)

Dave, I can't view these google links. Google asks me to sign in, and then request permission, I 
assume from you. Can you please put them in a public-viewing space and provide those links? Thanks.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Lewis" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Dating a Presto Recording Corp. Transcription Disc Label


> Since we're on the subject, I could use similar help with these two. They
> arrived as someone used them as packing material for a Homer Rodeheaver
> record that I ordered. From the sound and style of the 'music' I would
> place them about 1958, but is there something here that can date them more
> definitely?
> I had thought that the "1657 Broadway" address given for Nola Recording
> Studios -- which moved out of the Steinway Bldg. just last year -- might be
> a clue,
> but that is still Steinway Hall where it always was. With the other disc,
> does the number "PL-7-0570" mean anything to anyone?
>
> By the way, the designation "BAD" on the Nola disc certainly fits; it's a
> sentimental 50s pop song, with a piano that does not obey the harmony
> implied by the
> melody line and amateurish sax breaks.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1OUF9sGAJwvSGk1MjRxTGtnX00
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1OUF9sGAJwvUVpnSjR0TnQzTWM
>
> best,
>
> Dave Lewis
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:30 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> That's great, Matthew.  That looks like very useful info.  Maybe there is
>> some way Jesse could compare what he has (the sound file) to the
>> Jackson/Lomax tapes, if they have ever been made available in some format,
>> from which he could make a definite conclusion.
>>
>> Jesse, the paper labels were always glued on, in my experience, and they
>> often do come off (bits of the one on your disc are still there).  I don't
>> know if the paper labels had glue already affixed that just needing
>> wetting, but I have always assumed so.  We find acetate discs with many
>> kinds of paper labels on them, many bearing logos (just look up
>> "transcription disc" on Ebay), which is what I was referring to.  The
>> Presto logo here is embossed into the blank disc that was used.  If what
>> Matthew is suggesting were correct, the disc copy could have been made at
>> any point in time after the original recording was made, so dating the
>> blank itself would not be very useful.  If you knew that the disc itself
>> was a live recording, that would be different, but as Matt suggests, it may
>> be a copy of the original recording.
>>
>> That is a common disappointment with instantaneous records, when you think
>> you have found something really important, only to discover that what you
>> have is a copy of a recording that is already "out there" and sometimes
>> even a commercial recording.  You often can't tell that until you have
>> dubbed the record and compared it.  I recently went thru exactly that
>> exercise myself, finding that the rare looking two-sided acetate was just a
>> copy of readily available commercial records.  But like I always say, if
>> you don't look, you don't find.
>>
>> Even if your disc is a copy, that does not mean it is worthless.  I have
>> found an instance where the original source had deteriorated to the extent
>> that an old copy of it made way back there was a good thing to have.
>>
>> Back to your label for a minute, the small clues that can be got from what
>> is left there are two typed word fragments, the first being "dier" and the
>> second being "ulation" or "olation."  These match two of the song titles,
>> "Christian Soldier" and "The Church's Desolation," but I am sure you have
>> already figured that out, and this doesn't help.
>>
>> Good luck with this.
>>
>> Best,
>> John Haley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Barton, Matthew <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Jesse,
>> >
>> > This disc may have been copied from the field recordings of Sacred Harp
>> > Singers made by George Pullen Jackson and Alan Lomax in the summer of
>> 1942
>> > in Birmingham, AL. By this time, the Library of Congress had the means to
>> > make disc copies of original field recordings for artists and the public.
>> > Given that this is an aluminum based-disc, the copy may have been made
>> > after the war, or the Library's sound lab might still have had a supply
>> of
>> > aluminum-based lacquers. I checked, and all four of the titles you
>> provided
>> > were recorded by Jackson and Lomax in Birmingham. One of them, Christian
>> > Solider, was recorded twice with different leaders. As you probably know,
>> > there was an album release of 18 songs from these sessions, but the
>> titles
>> > you provided are not on it.
>> >
>> > As you point out, these were popular hymns and all might have been sung
>> at
>> > any given Sacred Harp gathering, but I thought I'd put this theory
>> forward.
>> >
>> > I hope this helps.
>> >
>> >
>> > Matthew Barton
>> > Library of Congress
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jesse P. Karlsberg
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:01 AM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Dating a Presto Recording Corp. Transcription
>> Disc
>> > Label
>> >
>> > Dear Tom, Franz, John, Steve, and others,
>> >
>> > Thanks to all for sharing insights and resources in response to my
>> > question yesterday about dating a Presto transcription disc label. To
>> add a
>> > bit more information:
>> >
>> > 1. From examining the disc my impression was that the paper label was
>> > home-made and pasted over the Presto logo and has since largely been torn
>> > off. The Presto logo underneath is blue-green and appears to be stamped
>> or
>> > printed directly on the acetate.
>> > Franz: is that what you're referring to when you mention a "green stamped
>> > Presto," and what leads you to associate such a label with the late
>> 1930s?
>> > John: what is a "logo label"? In this case it doesn't look like the label
>> > was stuck onto the disc, but rather, that it was printed directly onto
>> the
>> > acetate if that's possible.
>> > 2. As John speculates, the disc is aluminum and is covered by acetate or
>> > some similar substance. Although the disc is indeed delaminating we
>> > fortunately were able to have it digitized by Michael Graves of Osiris
>> > Studio before any serious damage was done to playability.
>> > 3. The material on the recording itself doesn't help us date the item.
>> The
>> > disc contains four songs sung by a medium-sized group of Sacred Harp
>> > singers. The sound is more consistent with a live singing convention than
>> > with a studio setting. For those interested, the songs are "Raymond" (p.
>> > 441 in The Sacred Harp) and "Cowper" (p. 168) on side A and "The Church's
>> > Desolation" (p. 89) and "Christian Soldier" (p. 57) on side B. All are
>> > relatively common songs that have been in active use over the entire
>> period
>> > when the disc could have been recorded. The person from whom the Sacred
>> > Harp Museum purchased the disc believed that the recording had been made
>> > some time in the 1940s in East Central Alabama but had no specific
>> > information.
>> >
>> > What I am hoping is that others may have encountered identically designed
>> > stamped Presto labels. I recognize that the disc might have sat around
>> for
>> > a while before it was used, but am hopeful that if any other such discs
>> > have been dated it might at least help us approximate the earliest the
>> > recording could have been made, and may offer other clues as well.
>> >
>> > One last question: in the 1940 Presto catalog linked from the
>> Preservation
>> > Sound blog, the final page in the second file lists various discs for
>> sale.
>> > (http://www.preservationsound.com/wp-
>> > content/uploads/2011/09/Presto_1940_cat_2.pdf) All but one, the
>> "monogram"
>> > disc, mention a colored seal, yet the monogram disc has a "composition
>> > base." Is the stamped label on the disc in question a "monogram"? What
>> is a
>> > composition base?
>> > Does anyone have access to earlier or later Presto Recording Corp.
>> > catalogs with different listings of available Presto discs?
>> >
>> > Thanks again for all your help. I appreciate it.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Jesse
>> >
>>
>
> 

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