Hi Eric -

Nice info, thanks. Good to know. Now, how about a mathematical formula 
that will tell one, if there is a linear scratch or a break that goes 
straight from record edge to center hole, exactly when the pop will 
sound from revolution to revolution along the groove.
For instance (and I am just picking numbers out of the air by way of 
supposition) if it takes 1 second between two pops at the outer edge of 
the record, say 4.5" from the center, how long will it take between pops 
at 2.5" from the center? And how much less time will elapse per 
revolution at, say, a 120 groove pitch? It will obviously be a 
decreasing number the closer to the center of the disc one goes. There's 
got to be a (simple) formula!
I have long thought that using an algorithm to determine where the pops 
will fall would be of great help in digitally removing most of a scratch 
or crack in a 78 (or any other speed record for that matter). Maybe as a 
plug in for existing audio editors.

Malcolm Rockwell

*******

On 11/27/2015 9:48 AM, Eric Jacobs wrote:
> For those who don¹t mind a physics/mathematical representation of
> what¹s going onŠ
>
> The torque of the turntable motor is constant.
>
>
> When cutting...
>
> The torque due to stylus friction while cutting a groove varies with
> radius:
>
>      Stylus Torque = Radius X Stylus Cutting Force
>      Radius outer groove > Radius inner groove
>      Stylus Torque (outer grooves) > Stylus Torque (inner grooves)
>
>
> When playing...
>
>      Stylus Cutting Force > Stylus Playback Force
>
>
> When cutting...
>
>      Net Torque = Turntable Motor Torque - Stylus Torque
>
>      Net Torque (outer grooves) < Net Torque (inner grooves)
>
>      RPM (outer grooves) < RPM (inner grooves)
>
> Because there is more net torque when cutting the inner grooves, the
> turntable spins a bit faster when cutting the inner grooves.  Or you
> can think of it the other way - that the turntable spins slower when
> cutting the outer grooves because there is less net torque.
>
>
>
> When playing...
>
>      Net Torque is more constant because the Stylus Torque during
>      playback is so much smaller than during cutting.
>
>      Net Torque = Turntable Motor Torque - Stylus Torque (very small)
>
>      Net Torque (outer grooves) ~= Net Torque (inner grooves)
>
>
>      RPM (outer grooves) ~= RPM (inner grooves)
>
>
> Pitch variation is a function of playback speed variation
>
> IMPORTANT: When playback speed is faster than the recording speed,
> the pitch is higher, and vice versa.  This is the essence of why
> there is pitch variation.
>
>
> Recall from above:
>
>      When cutting: RPM (outer grooves) < RPM (inner grooves)
>      When playing: RPM (outer grooves) ~= RPM (inner grooves)
>
> and therefore
>
>      RPM cutting (outer grooves) < RPM playback (outer grooves)
>
>
>
> The playback RPM on the outer grooves is faster than the original
> cutting speed.  Therefore the outer groove pitch is higher than the
> pitch on the inner grooves (or vice versa, the pitch on the inner
> grooves is lower than the outer grooves).
>
>
> To account for this variation in speed during recording, the
> recording engineer would cut the first disc in a series starting
> with the outer groove.  The second disc in a series would start
> on the inner groove, so that the speeds would more closely match
> between the first and second discs.  Inner and outer groove start
> would continue to alternate during the recording session.
>
>
> Hopefully this somewhat long-winded mathematical explanation is
> helpful.
>
> ~ Eric
>
>     Eric Jacobs, Principal
>     The Audio Archive
>     1325 Howard Ave, #906, Burlingame, CA  94010
>     Tel: 408-221-2128 | [log in to unmask]
>     http://www.theaudioarchive.com/
>
>
>
>
> On 11/27/15, 9:09 AM, "Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List on
> behalf of DAVID BURNHAM" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I think the obvious answer to your second question is insufficient torque
>> on the recording turntable.  This happened on many recorded sides, one
>> example that comes to mind is the Weingartner "Les Preludes" by Liszt.
>> The cutting stylus puts considerable drag on the turntable and that drag
>> increases towards the centre of the disc, dragging the speed down.  If
>> the recording turntable motor is not VERY strong and is unable to
>> maintain the corrrect speed throughout the cut, the resulting slower
>> speed towards the end of the side gradually raises the pitch on playback.
>> With modern digital workstations, this error is easy to fix, but back in
>> the days of reel to reel tape, trying to rejoin the sides on the
>> aforementioned "Les Preludes" was a nightmare.
>> db
>>
>>
>>     On Friday, November 27, 2015 11:48 AM, Andrew Hallifax
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your contribution Jolyon. I am in fact following all such
>> advice
>> and practices as you describe. We're working on the presumption that
>> standard pitch seems to have been adopted in Argentina sometime during the
>> late 30s. Regardless of how true that is, our presumption is supported by
>> most other discs in the series produced during the 1950's which render
>> more
>> or less reliably A442ish at nominal 78rpm.
>> However, my question to the list was aimed not so much at resolving the
>> pitching/speed conundrum per se, but in the hope of discovering whether
>> anyone might offer an insight into why speeds were inconsistent across the
>> two sides of discs recorded on the same day and bearing adjacent matrices,
>> and also, why or how certain recordings of this period change pitch during
>> the side.
>>
>>
>>